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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Topic: (WIP) Evil Mushroom
    Posted: 10 July 2007 at 2:33am
I want to make an evil mushroom, but I come to a drawer's block (much like a writer's block) It's missing something, and I can't figure out what is wrong.
 
 
Maybe it's the lighting (I suck at shadowing) or maybe it's the pose or something. Hints, tips and stuff are very very welcome.
 
Edit:
Here I canged the shape of the mouth and coloured in the eyes. Plus I used some more colors for the lighting. Still hints, tips and stuff are most welcome
 


Edited by Club Beuker - 10 July 2007 at 3:05am
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Kfuchoin
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:15am
ok dude i'll help ya out...
first: pillowshading is a big no in here... look at the top of the mushroom  pillowshading = no... o i notice you mad eit in the torso too fix that first..
 
second: the tooth they're bad made... i'll make you a quick edit when i can..
 
third: the blood doesn't looks like blood... blood is like water it ahs highlights..
 
fourth: the top... it looks liek glass and that's not the idea look at soem mushroom references at google...
 
seriously i'll make you a quick edit, now i'll work in an edit for ya...
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:29am
Thanks for you reply and the upcoming edit (you made me curious). The reason I used pillowshading here is because I really s*ck at dithering or AA. Thanks for the blood tip though.
 
I wanted to make the top a bit shiny, but you tell me it looks like glass. Is there another way without it looking like glass?
 
I'll wait for your edit
 
This is what I have so far:


Edited by Club Beuker - 10 July 2007 at 7:32am
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Kfuchoin
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:29am
 
 
there you go.. i added more blood so it looks more evul... and fixed the pillowshading with diether.. but i'll let someone with more experience than me to keep on looking for the mistakes here
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:54am
Ok.. that in my opinion is way too much blood. I want evil, not gore ;)
 
Still thanks for you example, I'll try to take my lesson out of it
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 7:59am
It looks like you shaded the trunk and then drew the facial features right on top and then did no more shading. The face is going to look extremely flat unless you shade in some of the depressions and protrusions such as eyesockets, lips, and nose.

Take a look at Fool's masterful mushroom for inspiration: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/16441.htm

EDIT: Typo, URL tags.

Edited by Hatch - 10 July 2007 at 8:00am
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:02am
I did the shading of the trunk the same time i did the shading of the facial features. Then again I'm a n00b at shading, so it's a good way to learn stuff like this. Thanks for your help
 
This is what I got now:


Edited by Club Beuker - 10 July 2007 at 8:17am
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:04am
I'm no less of a noob than you, it just sometimes takes another set of eyes to locate a problem. Best of luck with this piece.
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:14am
Sorry for the double post, but you should also be more careful with your color count. This piece has 78 colors including transparency.
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Kfuchoin
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:15am
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/2659.htm
take a look at that sedge mushroom by sedge monkey...
 
 
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:20am
Thanks for the examples and tips.
 
@Hatch, it's not really a problem that this piece has loads of colors, it's more like a practice for myself. Still, thanks for pointing it out to me
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:28am
Well, the trouble is that I think this could greatly benefit from more contrasting colors and/or a hue shift, either of which is difficult to do without a carefully managed palette. I personally think that palette management should be part of pixel practice (hooray for alliteration), but you know what they say about opinions.

EDIT: Typo.

Edited by Hatch - 10 July 2007 at 8:33am
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Kfuchoin
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:36am
too much colors.. use diether...
i'll make you another quick edit at the tooth... so they ll see better ^^
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 8:44am
 
 
well there... i hope you note the diference in the tooth.., and i insist.. more blood >=)
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Quote PixelSpy Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 9:54am
I find the pillow shading to be very distracting. I would get rid of that
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 12:18am
I'll try to change the shading into dither. *Goes in search for a dither tutorial*
 
Edit:
Ok I dithered it (the best I can do for now) But I don't like it at all. I picked 6 colors for his cap so the color count should be a lot lower.
 
 
And made another dither (started all over):
The only thing that seems wrong now is the light source.


Edited by Club Beuker - 11 July 2007 at 1:48am
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 7:04am
due that's way too much diether.. look to the first edit i made.. i slightly diether over it...
 
second... you have to remake the top of that mushroom... it sux... go and look for some mushroom references at google...
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 7:30am
Take a look at this veteran pixel artist's recent post about dither; I found it extremely informative: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4557#68975

He goes on to talk about sand and water and stuff but the point is there. You have no reason to use it at the state your piece is in. You don't really need new shades and your color count is through the roof anyway. Also, dithering should only be done in the finishing stage.

You said yourself the light source is wrong, which means you're going to have to redo the lighting, which means you're going to have to destroy all your carefully laid dither to reshade. Dithering is one of the last things you should do, if you do it at all. I was extremely stubborn when people were trying to teach me this lesson, much to my detriment. And I'm still struggling with it. See me being a stubborn douche for yourself: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4478

Having said all that, and not addressing the top at all, the face still looks very flat. I think it's largely due to a lack of contrast (don't be afraid to use DEEP shadows, especially on a spooky piece like this) and a lack of shading of the facial features. Just because it's a mushroom doesn't mean it shouldn't have humanoid features like lips, eye sockets, brow, etc.

Here's another reference. It's not a mushroom, but it has a similar vibe to it: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/17941.htm

Note the spooky lighting, deep shadows, well-defined facial features and so on.

Edited by Hatch - 11 July 2007 at 5:44pm
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2007 at 12:38am
I think I'll start all over, with a little different shroom. I'm in too deep in this one to change it all.
 
Kfuchoin is right about the hat too, grin.
 
Hatch: Thanks for the great references, those are a great help!
 
Edit:
And after a few minutes and a reference photo (google) of a mushroom I came up with this:
 
 
Edit:
And with some dithering I ended up with this:
    
 
Another Edit:


Edited by Club Beuker - 12 July 2007 at 2:46am
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:06am

A few hours later I tipped the hat over, and color dithered that too:

Ofcourse C&C is still welcome

Edited by Club Beuker - 12 July 2007 at 7:10am
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:27am
Hey, I think this is looking way, way better, CB! Great work. You have done a good job defining the facial features.

I encourage you to ease off the dither, though. I don't think it's adding much to the piece.

Your palette could benefit from some livening up. Have a look:



I threw this together in just a couple seconds, so it's sloppy and exaggerated, but I hope it gives you some ideas. See how the hue goes more to red/purple as it goes into shadows? It can give your piece a nice spooky feel and make it seem deeper.

It looks like the lighting on the upper lip is in reverse. Seems like the light should be hitting the jutting part with more strength and the part right above that should be slightly in shadow. ditto (sort of) for the bottom lip. I struggle with lighting, though, so I may be wrong.

The eyes are kind of confusing. Are they glowing? If so, they should be emitting light and the lighting of the face should change to reflect that (tricky). If they're NOT glowing, you may want to change their colors.

Lastly, I don't think the bloody teeth read very well.

Having said all that, though, you really have done a great job improving this piece. Keep it up!

Edited by Hatch - 12 July 2007 at 7:38am
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2007 at 7:50am
I see what you mean, it looks a lot better with the darker contrast. Gets more depth. So I changed it (same with the lip highlights and the eyes) but now it seems it's losing something.
 
 
For second, what would you do to make the teeth bloody? Cause they are so small, and details disappear easily on them. *It cracks my brains*
 
Edit:
And I think I understand the power of contrast now (added more contrast to the hat)


Edited by Club Beuker - 12 July 2007 at 8:04am
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2007 at 8:12am
It looks to me like the color of the eyes is to close to the color of the surrounding shadows. At 1x, it looks like the eyes are just slits (the highlights).

Also, I don't think you understood what I meant about the lighting on the lips. The jutting part, the part IMMEDIATELY above the teeth, the part that is now entirely in shadow should get the light and the part immediately above that, the part right under the nose, should be in shadow. But as I said, I'm NOT a master of lighting. (or anything else)

As for the teeth, I personally would lose the blood altogether. I don't think it fits with the piece. Even If you want to keep it, though, I can't really offer any advice on how to make it look better.

EDIT:
Originally posted by Club Beuker

Edit:
And I think I understand the power of contrast now


Edited by Hatch - 12 July 2007 at 8:13am
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2007 at 12:33am
Did some edits, including the lips. Also recolored the eyes.
 
 
Edit:
Lost the teeth


Edited by Club Beuker - 13 July 2007 at 12:44am
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2007 at 7:33am
Here's a quickie "oh crap I'm at work and my boss could walk in at any moment" edit:



Yeah, it's really sloppy and too dark and I've made your lightsource inconsistent, but the key things to note are:

    • Know what shapes you're defining and use light to define them clearly.

    • A bunch of random pixels DOES NOT EQUAL complexity.

    • It's OK to have big swaths of one shade when it makes sense to do so.

    • There were more but I forgot them

Hope this helps.

Oh, and it's probably not worth fixing at this point (I don't blame you if you don't), but the eyes seem to be out of perspective with the mouth. That is, the eyes are facing more toward us and the mouth is facing more to the right (our right)

EDIT: Edited my edit to make it brighter.
EDIT: Now that I have a little more time, I took my edit further. Defined a clear light source, etc. Didn't touch the top. See above, it's the last one, with the green BG

Edited by Hatch - 13 July 2007 at 11:12pm
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:03am
Thanks for the directions you gave me, I kinda stole/used some of your palette ;)
 
 
Seems a lot better now
 
Edit:
changed the cap a bit. Do you think this is good enough to enter the gallery?


Edited by Club Beuker - 16 July 2007 at 2:22am
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:25am
Great job!

Yes, this is probably good enough to get into the gallery, but I encourage you to tweak a few more things before you submit it.

Firstly, you still have a lot of noisy, random pixels, especially around his eyes. Whatever they were before, they can no longer really be called dither and you should get rid of them.

Secondly, thee lighting of the cap appears to be inconsistent with the body and inconsistent with itself. See how the light is coming directly from the right? So the underside of the cap which is directly behind the trunk should be in shadow, since the trunk is blocking the light (that's why the trunk is lighted). As for the top of the cap, it doesn't seem to me that it should be getting any direct light at all. (well, maybe just a little at the extreme right)

If you have trouble lighting the cap I can do another edit for you if you'd like.

Keep up the great work
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:36am

With the hints and tips taken and changes made, it would end up something like this:

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Kfuchoin
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Quote Kfuchoin Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:53am
dude AWESOME JOB great decision to go over it and make one totally new congrats ^^
maybe you need to change the top of the musrrom contrast you worked on the face in an exhaustive work.. now go for the top.. so you'll get a master piece...
may the pixels be with you..
~Kfuchoin
eMo

looking for people for an RPG info: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4903
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:55am
Fantastic

If you wanted to take this piece further, you could put a texture or pattern on the top of the cap, and perhaps make the texture on the bottom continue all the way around into the shadow, but I think you could submit it as is and be very proud.

Whatever you decide, I strongly recommend that you post a link to Lawrence's evil tree piece as inspiration when you submit it.

EDIT: This is the piece I'm referring to. And it's actually called Tree Monster. Sorry Lawrence

Edited by Hatch - 16 July 2007 at 7:57am
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Club Beuker
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Quote Club Beuker Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 8:20am
Well I'm getting enough of this Shroom ;) Took most of my energy hehe. Well I submitted it (with the link to Lawrence's Tree Monster) and gave you kudo's for your help Hatch.
 
Thanks a lot! On to the next piece
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Quote soda Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 9:11am
Wow, great job on such an improvement, kudos, Club Beuker.  
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