What are your thoughts on proper critisism? When does it go too far? Does anyone want to write up an editorial on this issue?

Proper critisism is the one that points out, not only the mistakes, but the good things the piece has as well. If one thinks that the art has no good things, or it is done by a very new pixel artist, that's when constructive critisism is needed the most.

To critique well is not just saying "that tree looks terrible", people should tell the creator how to improve the work. If someone wants to critique, it means he/she has the patience to help the artist where it's needed.

Critisism goes too far when phrases like "that sucks", "you are really bad" or "dats so n00b lolz" are used. The idea is to help people improve their work, not to make them feel worthless.  

awesomely put Monsoon. Great ideas so far by everyone. I would honestly love to get a manual together for people who want to make the most of their critiques... both by reading them and by making them.

What I have an extreme problem with is that sometimes those who have been around long enough begin to feel entitled to an attitude of "I have more experience and therefor I am better."

If you come at someone you've never spoken to before whilst looking down your nose, ofcourse they are going to be offended. It doesnt matter WHAT you are saying to them. Your points can be perfectly valid, but won't make -any- impact at all on the person b/c they are too busy being hurt or disgusted by HOW you are saying things.

Instead of telling someone something they made is BAD, or NEEDS to be fixed, you should SUGGEST to them that maybe they could do this or that b/c it would make the piece better. 

Edited by Bisque

iST: thanks... it's meant to be somewhat humourous yet inspiring.

You put forth a point, but I think it has a flaw. In pixel art, growth by experimentation--an isolated newb's only method of development--is only a good technique to use once you have mastered the basics. I made pixels as a n00b (pre-joining this community) that were downright horrible. I improved a huge amount once I took the time to read some tutorials on the web that showed me my mistakes.

With the newbie who knows nothing of pixel art, directing them to tutorials for their next works in a kind fashion would probably work as long as they care enough to read the tutorial and update their skills/techniques. Asking an impatient newb to redo their "hard work" isn't a good idea, though telling them to do something on their next work is less traumatizing for the newb.

I say this because although your skills may increase, you can't always salvage some of your weak art. I recently cleaned my 'Pixels' folder, and about 65% of the stuff couldn't be brought up to par without unreasonable effort.

a method i sometimes used when giving critiques is the "sandwich" method. you first start with a very positive comment, or series of comments. you then talk about the negative parts of the image and how to improve. then you give another positive comment, about the image.

I think this recent thread over at Pixelopolis has relevance here

I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but i've been a member of several art forums for some time, and something that i am kind of puzzled about is people's interpetation of what many people say here: "You shouldn't just point out the bad things about a piece, but also the good things."

stacy, you're main problem is you are taking the criticisms way to personally.  80% of comments/crits are from the viewers perspective.  its like looking at clouds, you may see a rabbit but i see star.  everyone sees something different. 

if someone says the face looks manly, then perhaps it is.  many pairs of eyes can point out flaws.  in an artists eyes, or the untrained eye, the piece may look perfect, but in another's it looks speedily done with not much effort.

the problem with deviant art is that they really never give good crits, because most of the people leaving you comments aren't pixel artists and don't have the knowledge of the art to point out flaws, or even know what they are for that matter.

and like i said in your comments, there will always be those who you can never please, or people who get off only posting negative comments and being assholes.

i am going to be completely blunt...  if you don't want negative comments, or people heavily criticizing your work, then pixel joint is not the place for you.  we, for the most part, are very dedicated and protective of our art mainly because it is so misunderstood.  there have been many before you, and will continue to be more in the future, people who open ms paint, sling a few pixels, and think they are then professional pixel artists. 

i by no means am a pro, i am far from it.  i have my moments when i pull it all together...  but i have far to go.  we all do, even the greats have their flaws they need to work on, and with you being new, you have far to go as well.  you are coming into a community that is weary of outsiders who get angry that people are constantly judging their work, when that is how you improve.  however, it isnt hard to become part of this community...  it takes dedication and willingness to learn and improve.  this isnt like deviant art, where everything you submit is automatically approved.  imagine the gallery if we let that happen?

in conclusion, before i get way off topic and loose my concentration...  take every comment with a grain of salt.  i have been here nearly 2 years, and i have seen hundreds people come and go...  the ONE thing that differentiates them from people who have stuck around is dedication.every single person here get crappy commets on art every now and then.  if you dont like the comment, you have 3 ways of dealing with it...

1.  get pissed off and yell at them
2.  ignore them
3.  examine what they said, ask for clarification, ask for help on improving, etc...

i hope you were not directing that at me.  i dont do that at all.  i spend hours on my work...



i do agree, but i also think it can be one in a kinder manner... i mean the people could point out the good aspects of the piece...and if there are none.. then the picture should not have been added in the first place..

@ Stacy:

Disclaimer: I indeed am one of those "stupid" blokes who bitch at newbie stickman-art and offten give harsh criticism. If you cant stand the kind of person, beter dont read on.

 

Body: You seem to me really naive. When I read your posts 1st time, I seriously thought you must be early teen, though your profile (if its right) says otherwise.
The thing is , as guys already wrote, your whole life you are being criticised. Judged for various things by various people and mostly the hard way.

 

Also if you ever attended any art school (or any school in general), you know your work is constantly under hard critism there. And most of the time you can only guess if thats because some of your teachers are just plain asses or really trying to teach you something.

 

My point - the thing I came up to after a long time as artist and also as member of various web forums etc. - is there is some kind of darvinism in process of learning things\doing things. Either you are strong enough (dedicated enough, maybe apathetic enough) to work hard and stand the hard crit afterward, the go on again, or you are NOT.

If you are, you wount quit and maybe you actually get used to cc and find way to get the positive part from it (the "constructive", the "advice" part).

You can even bitch back at your critics, if that make you feel better for the moment and five you "strenght to go on", though it may also make you look stupid and noob.

If you are not strong enough, you will just cry how the whole world is bad at you (which you are doing now imho), then run away and probably never become anything more then noob in any form of doing.

All from me.

Edited by Riva - 16 February 2007 at 12:51am

So well put, I couldn't agree more.
So cool to have you join Pixeljoint, welcome.

You should have the ability to realise what needs fixing when someone tells you what is wrong with a piece. Seriously, we can't do everything for you. How on earth is it an insult not to tell you exactly what to do? If anything i would expect telling someone exactly what they had to do would be patronising. You should try not to take offense to practically everything you come across.

Do not take offense to what i've said in this post. I'm only trying to help afterall.

I think that you should try and say something good about the art if you say something bad.
And try and be specific too. For example:

Bad:
It really needs a load of work, it's not too great at all. Bad job.

Good:
I would suggest that in your future work you try and get a bit more detail
on the armour, maybe a little coat of arms or something, because the lack of detail ruins it a little bit.
But I really like the dithering on it though, plus it's nice and colourful.
Good luck on your future projects.

Why was the top one bad? Well, it wasn't specific - saying that something needs a lot of work isn't helpful at all.
People need to know what they can improve on, not just that it needs improving.

And the top one merely said something bad about it, leaving the artist feeling rejected and unhappy.

On the other hand, the bottom one said something good about the work after, softening the blow.

Something to think about in those moments Larwick is...
You might not like the work in question? But surely you can appreciate the excitement that comes with putting your work in front of your peers for review? So just say something like:

"Good job on posting your work up for review."
"It's great to see people still working on ideas like this one."
etc.

You don't have to touch the artwork, maybe it's the direction the artist is trying to go. Is it a spaceship? A Wee? Or a completely new direction? Just reassuring the poster that we are always looking for people who want to grow is enough sometimes... at least it was for me.

<btw>This is VERY old topic :)</btw>

A lot have been sayd here, but when I look at it from wider perspective, the whole tread, with all its nice advices, tutorials and opinions seems totaly worthless to me.

Maybe most of the active members of this forum really are almost angel-like wise and kind creatures.
But if they are not - I would guess so - then I can't imagine even 1% of them being able to follow those rules, and meditate upon and tweak theyr posts, when giving a CC on daily basis. :)

I think you are all great philosophers, but its reality out there ;)

Now I could go on about this and state what should and shouldn't be but I think that is covered. I have seen comments on this forum already today which aren't really comments that should have been made in the way they were.. There ARE some people who can no be helped but there should also be a level of awareness on both parts when it comes to criticism.

One thing that is most important is that you should give constructive criticism if you say you don't like it, say why, if you can offer an idea, direction or link to what could solve it.

This is an open Forum where the only restriction for posting is to sign up for the forum by registering. You will get a lot of people with less talent signing up and who are new. Unfortunately for those of you seasoned pixelers and forum users the internet doesn't require some sort of license so you will get people who don't read well or miss posts that tell you where something is.  And yes some of those are just completely hopeless.

I have also been on forums where there were people so rude that there was no reason behind thier posts other than to be rude. I would hope the moderators here have the time and respect for this community to get rid of those ones or perhaps close off the forum signups without first checking out the people signing up and requiring some sort of screening process :)

Yeah those never work raven :P

I used to be hesitant to give critique, especially to artists who I considered more advanced than me (ie, all artists), because, after all, what the f**k do I know? You'll notice I'm not so shy anymore. I realized it really doesn't matter. I realized I should just speak plainly and honestly about what I think would improve this or that piece, and others could voice their own opinions, and the artist on the receiving end would sift through all of the input and pick out the things he agreed with. Maybe he'd agree with some of my input, maybe not, but I could rest easy knowing I gave the best advice I was able to give.

There's a lot to learn from giving critique. I don't think newcomers should be shy about giving advice to anyone, and they shouldn't feel they need to put up defenses like "I could never make something this good, but..." or "I know you're like a million times better than me, but..." Just state your opinion honestly and dispense with the apologies. Don't be hurt if other posters contradict you--it's sort of critique-critique, and very helpful. Don't be hurt if the artist rejects your ideas, passively or actively--analyze why he did and make the decision to learn from the experience rather than just feeling hurt or defensive. Did your suggestions not jibe with the style he was going for? Were you incorrect on a technical level? Did you offend him? Were you too vague? Take responsibility; don't blame the artist. Analysis of failure is one of the most valuable tools for improving in any field, and it's doubly effective when you apply it to your own critique, because it also helps you get better at what you're critiquing.

This is pretty much why I stopped posting in every single topic that comes into the WIP forum (I still check them all, but I just keep my mouth shut). I figured "I haven't really done anything myself lately, I'm in no position to be telling others what to do."

I did read the whole thing. I was merely pointing out the first sentence as it related to me. >_<

When I first posted my work on the internet (it wasn't just pixel art) I posted it on a site called Newgrounds, witch is a mixed bag when it comes to criticism. There were some people who just responded with crap like "omg this sukz bals!!!", witch is the worst response you can get, because COME ON, is that really going to do anything? Why waste your time like that? Then there was one guy who was really helpful, unlike all the other responses, he told me what needed help, and why. I felt kind of sad, because people who do that always seemed better than I did, but I didn't give up.

That is what you are aiming for right there. It's like a game. You're basically trying to keep the artist from just quitting, witch is hard to do at first. The most successful way of doing this is to tell what you liked about it and encouragement in any other way. Everything has some good in it. Even the best artist's first work is always crap, but constructive criticism is how we all get better.

Now here's an example of when it goes too far. Someone once said my art was "painful", and the correct definition for that is "causing physical pain" or "causing distress or trouble". Art should do neither of those, especially when I spent a long time on it.

That's my thought on constructive criticism.

Didn't I admit I was, and partialy still am, several times through my old post ? ;)

PS I wonder that this topic still does exist :)

Or crushes you horribly. XD

There needs to be a balance between tough enough to make you want to improve and gentle enough to support you through it.

Too harsh, and people wave the white flag. Too gentle, and people get ego issues. It has to be just right. It's like what's her name and the three bears. XD