WIP (Work In Progress)
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Mr.Fahrenheit
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Quote Mr.Fahrenheit Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2014 at 7:31am
I think for the arm that instead of sliding it farther over I would try redrawing the shape, because you drew the front of the arm rather then the side, so the shape would change.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2014 at 10:10am
Sorry if i sound stupid, but im not exactly sure how i'd go about doing that?

For more content, tried to make it look like the arm isn't in front, didn't re-draw it as im unsure of how i would do that:



Key: 1 = Original 2 = Edit

Should i leave the the right arm slightly smaller, so it implies it's not in front of the chest?


Edited by AshCrimson - 22 April 2014 at 10:36am
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Mr.Fahrenheit
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Quote Mr.Fahrenheit Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2014 at 2:54pm
Actually now that I think of it it doesnt really need to be changed too much, but its the chest that I think is causing the weird perspective :p, sorry. Take a look at my edits chest and how there it is shaded. If you simplify the chest's shape its sort of like a box. The way you drew it only shows the front of the box when you need to also show the side at this perspective.



The top is how you drew the chest (simplified)
The bottom is how you might go about drawing it at the right perspective.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2014 at 11:42pm
Thanks for the example Mr Fahrenheit!

Here's my attempt at doing what you said:



Hopefully that follows the perspective more!

I haven't done the fat body yet, will probably do it later on.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2014 at 11:01am
Another update:



1: Original
2: Edit With the chest i made before, as well as faces now, not sure how well they read, but i felt leaving them blank may have detracted, but if the faces do detract from the characters i will edit them as required.

Changed Archer and mage, as well.

Edit: Radically altered warriors in plate armour, hopefully it looks better now.


Edited by AshCrimson - 23 April 2014 at 1:55pm
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2014 at 2:27pm
Is there anything else i can do, in terms of the body? Should i keep the current AA on the legs, or should i reduce it?

I'm also thinking of trying to make female versions but not really sure how to.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2014 at 1:15pm
I'm considering submitting these soon to the gallery, with the edited versions.

Either that or create some more, until i have enough for three or four seperate versions (warriors, priests, archers and wizards/mages)


Edited by AshCrimson - 25 April 2014 at 1:21pm
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2014 at 10:10am
Even though i've submitted them, i've been working on a bigger version for practice reasons and to further put me out of my comfort zone since anatomy and creating people is what i feel to be my weakest point:



Apologies if this is against the rules, but i didn't want to create yet another thread when i still have this one up and because it's sort of the same topic.

I'm sort of worried about... well everything.
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Mr.Fahrenheit
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Quote Mr.Fahrenheit Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2014 at 4:46pm
At this size it seems like you can start looking into anatomy more so then at the smaller sizes. Getting the proportions right is probably the first thing I would go for. Check out some diagrams by Loomis on anatomy.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 8:38am
Thanks for the advice Mr Fahrenheit, I'm definitely going to be looking over anatomy and the human body to get the proportions more accurate.

By loomis who do you mean exactly?

Edit:

Andrew Loomis is it? Just found some of his books online!

Also here's a quick edit, hopefully the proportions look better (not sure about legs and arms...)




Edited by AshCrimson - 30 April 2014 at 10:17am
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Noburo
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Quote Noburo Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 10:50am
Here is a quick edit I made on the chunky dude.


The body form needs work and the lines need to be cleaned up. Right now the torso looks like it is facing straight forward while the legs and head are at an angle. Even though pixel art is 2d, you still need to think of the objects in 3 dimensions to properly understand and depict depth.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 11:00am
Thanks for the edit Noboru!

I will probably make the face and legs straight forwards, since im not sure how to make the chest look like it's at an angle at the moment.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 12:34pm
Does this look any better? Does the chest look like it's angled or is it still facing forwards? I realise the first one looks straight ahead, but im refering to the second one.



Tried also angling the feet.


Edited by AshCrimson - 30 April 2014 at 12:36pm
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inphy
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Quote inphy Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 1:39pm
Regarding proportions, it's still a bit off, although that might be desired for a more cartoony style. It's convenient to imagine more realistic proportions as "heads", for example split into 8 units like you have, but where the height of one unit is the height of the head.



A really fast and crude example of how it might look with realistic proportions:



Edited by inphy - 30 April 2014 at 1:40pm
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Noburo
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Quote Noburo Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 2:02pm

Another edit. There are a few things that I worked on.
1. The pectoral muscles were still centered in the middle of the screen. When they are from an angled view the closest one to the viewer will partially cover the other, so the center will be moved.
2. You need to be more careful in your use of AA. It should be used more as a means to properly create shapes, not just to hide the pixels by making blend into the background. Look at the edit I did to the legs. I use the AA as almost a half pixel in places that a full one would incorrectly form the shape.
3. Shoulders are much too broad for a character of this build type.
4. I gave him a little hair flip just because.

Edit:
5. His current arm pose was very gorilla-esque. Updated it to a much more suitable idle pose.

Edited by Noburo - 30 April 2014 at 2:04pm
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 2:09pm
I really appreciate both of your comments Inphy and Noburo. I don't want to straight up copy your edits, but they give me an idea of what direction i should be going towards.

Also i confess my AA is pretty bad, still getting used to when and how i should use it.


Edited by AshCrimson - 30 April 2014 at 2:11pm
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tyrant
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2014 at 5:00pm
Hey, hope you don't mind me barging in, but you really seem to be having trouble with the 3/4 views you're attempting. You've gotten some good advice and nice pixel-overs, but I don't think you've grasped the main concepts behind the edits.

You need to visualize the center line of your characters and imagine how it moves when they change angles to make a convincing 3/4 view. Here's a little diagram of what I mean:

There's a line dividing human figures in two equal sides. Imagining a line like this will help you line up the different parts of your characters. You can use the spine for the same purpose when drawing a back-view.

And here I've applied it to some mannikins based on your work:

You can also see that the line is more curved on the heavier guy. It' getting pushed out by the fat/muscle underneath. Being aware of these guide-lines will help you construct your characters in a more 3-dimensional way.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 12:22am
I'll confess that anatomy and art in general confuses me, but hopefully in time that'll pass.

Thanks Tyrant for the advice and edits, apologies for the exasperation. I might be looking at the edits too literally sorry.

Here's what i've done so far:



1 is the original for comparison

2 is before i read Tyrant's post

3 is after i read Tyrant's post

4 is also after, but i wasn't sure if the body looked right but  i left it in for comparison's sake.

Thanks again, for all the help, apologies for the slow progress. When it comes to drawing items i am good but when it comes to drawing characters, where's the more ambiguity im not good, hopefully this thread and the advice will help me improve upon that aspect.
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Noburo
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Quote Noburo Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 6:39am
You have a pretty extreme/unnatural arc on his back there. He's almost looking like some sort of weird snake man. I took #3 and filled in his back.



Pro tip: When you spend so much time looking at the same piece you start getting used to what your looking at. You can flip your canvas horizontally to get a fresh perspective.

Edited by Noburo - 01 May 2014 at 6:41am
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 8:26am
Thanks for the edit Noburo.
I'm trying the 8-heads thing Inphy suggested, and this is the problem im having so far:



I tried making the head smaller, but both of them still came to under 6.5 heads.

Should i remake it to fit 8 heads? Also if i do it that way, won't all the other characters be technically the same height judging by head shape?


Edit: Played around with heads again, not sure if they look too small/big




Edited by AshCrimson - 01 May 2014 at 12:17pm
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tyrant
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 1:09pm
It's looking better! The figure definitely reads as being turned slightly away from the viewer now.

As for the 8-heads proportions, I wouldn't bother with it. Your guys have a cartoony, exaggerated look to them, so trying to manipulate them to 8-heads tall is going to be a lot of work with little payoff. I feel that readability takes priority over realistic proportions and unless you are working with very large sprites (like for a fighting game) you'll end up with some exaggeration.

To answer your question: Yes, shorter people are less than 8-heads tall, more like 6 1/2-heads or even down to 5. Using 8 makes it easy to divide the figure up into equal sections and that's why it's popular for learning how to draw people. It's something to read up on and maybe apply to your next project, but you're pretty deep into this one to start messing with the foundation.

As for not being good, everyone has to start somewhere :)
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 3:12pm
Good to know, i was worried every character would need 8 heads worth of space, i appreciate the advice and comments you've given me so far! Characters aren't my strong point so i was always going to struggle, but i feel like i've learnt alot and improved since the start of this thread, especially after each time i upped the size.

Also here's a further update, tried my hand at the other body types, fat one is the most unfinished. Tried to make the skinny purple guy and blue average one look less sameish, not sure if i got it down though.



Sorry if the updates don't show much progress.
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tyrant
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 4:04pm
Just a couple more nitpicks here...

I added some pixels to the shadows under their armpits on the left to try and make their chests more angular. The darker pixels over their armpits on the right makes the pecs look too curved, almost like boobs. Also, when you are slimming down the skinny guy you need to take care not to just take pixels off of his waist, that gives him an hourglass shape, a traditionally feminine figure.

I think the tall guy is the most successful right now.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2014 at 4:18pm
Thanks for pointing out the issue with the thin guy and the waist! I'll make an edit with your worfds in mind and work more on them, will post later.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2014 at 12:09am
Quick update:



Hopefully the chest looks more male this time!
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2014 at 11:06am
Wasn't sure what to do next, so decided to do this:



If the bases need more work just tell me and i'll go back to concentrating on them.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2014 at 7:57am
Tried to replicate a more realistic base (tallest, next to scale).



Sorry if it doesn't seem like much of a change, i sort of wanted to keep the style consistant, whilst applying a more realistic (in terms of proportions) look to it.
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tyrant
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2014 at 1:31pm
Looking better! The new guy isn't bad, but I think adding him in changes the context of the others. Now they look kind of like kids to me. I would save working on realistic proportions for a future project since this one already has a style going.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2014 at 1:56pm
Thanks! I just wanted to see if i could do it, it's given me some more ideas about what i should do with the current bases. I didn't really make it to be in the same group, more of a "what i think a more realistic one would look like".
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tyrant
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2014 at 2:29pm
Ah, I see. Experimenting like that'll definitely help you in the long run :D
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2014 at 1:44am
Smaller update; some of the proportions (mostly shoulders) for all of the bases looked a tad wrong, especially for the fat and short versions. Added more shadows underneath the left arm, made small edits to the chest such as adding more shadow to hopefully reinforce the fact they're turned slightly, made the short base's shoulders a bit broader, widened fat base's legs, as well as his hips, which looked a bit odd in comparison to the torso. Also tried to add more depth to the groin and legs.

Also did some small edits to the (more) realistic base.



1 indicates original

2 indicates edit

I'm not sure what else to do at this point, so any further suggestions, advice, critique, etc would be welcome!
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Quote Kaz Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2014 at 2:36am
If you're happy with the shape i think now it's time to focus on accessories and positioning For example the monk/priest has his arm holding out the staff which looks good but the knight and the guy with the rapier just kind of hold it. Maybe try and shape them into a battle stance.

Edit: Made a rough idea (i know it's a bit derpy but you get the point)



Edited by Kaz - 04 May 2014 at 2:45am
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 1:15am
Thanks for reminding me to make the poses less static, Kaz. Took your critique and advice into account:



Also tried a few more of the ones i did previously.
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CELS
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 5:24am
Are you using any references for these? Do you have a specific time period in mind?

I think you need to go back and look at tyrant's advice in regards to the perspective and proportions. The base models look very werid due to the whole hips and chest region, both their proportions, their perspective and the way they're shaded. Again, you should probably find a reference for the view you're looking for (unless you want to pull your sleeves up and really practice drawing human anatomy for a few hundred hours) and try to follow it closely.

Right now, it kind of looks like you're just pixelling without a good sense of direction so it ends up looking a bit odd. The easiest way to fix this is to use lots and lots of references.

You've chosen to make the thigh really bright and the shins really dark, to illustrate that the thighs are angled more horizontally, compared to the shins which are angled more vertically. That is good. It makes sense. For the arms, you've done the opposite. The upper arms are bright, the lower arms are dark. Why is that?
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 5:49am
In regards to references, im not really using any. I'll try to find references for people positioned at such an angle.

In regards to the disparity of brightness between the arm and thigh, i guess i wasn't really thinking about shadows, i was more thinking about "how i can make this read/look like an arm".

Thanks for showing me that i still need to work on the bases, i recognise they're not proportionally accurate. I'll use some references this time and edit them accordingly (with your advice as well as other's in mind).

I do try to take advice into consideration, but i often forgot there's deeper connotations to it and just look at it literal as in "oh s/he's done this so i should do that" If that makes any sense?

Apologies!
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king_bobston
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Quote king_bobston Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 7:37am
In addition to what CELS said, look at head proportions (position of eyes, top of head)! Your big sprites don't have much room for their brains.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 9:27am
Tried to make the chest look... more chest like?





Tried to base it on the first chest on this reference, but wasn't exactly sure how to do without radically changing the chest.

I'm also unsure if i should mark the lines on the chest.




Edited by AshCrimson - 05 May 2014 at 11:12am
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CELS
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Quote CELS Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 2:28pm
Getting edits and advice on anatomy from me is like getting tips on enunciation from Mike Tyson. But since no one else is volunteering at the moment, I'll try my best.

After critiquing someone, it's always humbling to do an edit and realize you may not be able to do much better.

And none of these apologies! If everyone who made mistakes had to apologize, this forum wouldn't have room for anything else. And I don't pretend to offer any kind of objective truth, I'm just giving my opinion. You've every right to say "I see what you're saying, but f**k off" if that is your inclination.

With that out of the way:


I honestly had trouble deciding which way the shoulders are facing on your guy. One issue is that it seems like you want him to be facing the right, by the way his arms and feet are directed. Yet you're using a front pose for reference, so his shoulders and hips seem to be directed towards the viewer. Which way do you want him to be facing? Find a reference that matches what you want.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 3:08pm
Thanks so much for the explanation Cels.

I might end up completely changing the perspective, especially if it's continuing to be an issue.

I asked on another forum about what i could possibly do and one person suggested changing the shading so:



I'll make an edit with your words in mind.

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Quote skittle Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 3:27pm
This looks to be coming along nicely. One thing I noticed though is that maybe the neck comes down too far from the shoulders. And also, maybe the neck should be moved up one pixel like this?



I don't know a lot about anatomy, but he looks a bit hunched over with his neck in the current position that it is in.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 3:51pm
I'll make sure to lengthen the neck in future edits ADrawingMan.

Tried editing the legs, arms, feet.



I feel like i've just made it worse. I really liked the original pose, but if it's not correct i'll change it. I'm just worried that it looks increasingly awkward.
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 5:01pm
adrawingman didn't say to make the neck longer. He was talking about positioning of the neck inside the torso region. Take a look, he moved the neck further back so that it sits on top of the torso, you have your neck a bit inside the torso, which is not accurate in your perspective, so it makes him look like hes hunching his head
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Quote tyrant Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2014 at 6:06pm
This is just some more art theory for general anatomy help.

When you're creating figures/characters from imagination the musculature isn't as important as the 'landmarks' of the body. 'Landmarks' are major points of interest: joints like an elbow, features like a nose, or major plane changes like the jaw line. Once you're working as small as your sprites are, you don't have the space to render the serratus anterior or the sartorius muscles. So they get cut in favor of the major landmarks.

I've boiled the torso down to 4 major landmarks: the collar bone, the pectoral muscles, the bottom of the ribcage, and the bellybutton. You can also see how that looks on a more naturalistic(still somewhat cartoony) figure on the right.



Some other notes on proportion, the tips of the fingers should hit the thigh at half way down when the figure is standing up straight. The arm is a little bent and the leg is angled, but you can measure the arm to double check.

And when you're choosing reference, I'd steer clear of super-stylized images unless you're trying to imitate the style.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2014 at 1:48am
Dealing exclusively with the chest, do you mean something like this:


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Quote king_bobston Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2014 at 6:02am
I've made an edit and then got carried away doing it. I don't even quite remember what I wanted to type :(

Here it is anyway!


I guess my main point was the brain thing and to point out that the bottom of the ribcage goes up towards the middle - which isn't so important because it's not as visible as the outer sides of the bottom of the ribcage. Also don't worry too much about details - getting the basic 3D shape right is more important!

Because every human is inclined to make mistakes (and I'm very sure my edit is not flawless), it's up to you to validate the correctness of what's posted here. Google images of torsos, undress yourself in front of a mirror, undress other people if you have to (only with their consent, of couse ;) ) etc.

If I remember what I was going to initially say I might revise this post.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2014 at 10:16am
It's probably important to note at this stage that im not exactly wanting them to be a 100 percent anatomically correct, especially given the style they're done in. I just want them to be correct in terms of body shape and if it looks like an actual person.

Apologies if i sounded dismissive, i do appreciate the edits and feedback so far!
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 06 May 2014 at 1:22pm
Some more changes, mostly small:



One row with chest lines shown, other row with out, one column with shading based upon perspective, one without.

Still playing around with the lines, may change them.

Edit:



Tried to reduce the lines, to imply a chest.


Edited by AshCrimson - 06 May 2014 at 1:42pm
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2014 at 11:34am
Tried changing the chest again






Edited by AshCrimson - 07 May 2014 at 1:08pm
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2014 at 2:30pm
Decided to stop making bigger characters until i have a better understanding of anatomy and human form.

With that said, i also decided to make the previous base slightly bigger and applied what i learnt to it:



Trying to go down the Shining Force Route, so may eventually make a behind version.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2014 at 10:40am
Further edit, with some more examples of the characters.

Tried:
  • Making the shoulders more visable
  • Making the chest more visable
  • Showed collarbone.
  • Made arms more accurate in terms of length, especially with hand placement.


Hopefully this is an improvement. I'm sort of happy with the size so far.

As per usual, any Comments, Critique, Advice, etc is welcome!
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