WIP (Work In Progress)
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2014 at 4:53pm
Thanks for the advice! It's a constant, on-going process of improving it, as i learn more and more and while i find better and new ways of showing anatomy.

I'll continue to edit it, and i'll give your advice a go. I didn't realise the stomach looked so odd, i'm not confident atm trying out abs, but i might give it a try.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2014 at 7:47am
Apologies for the lack of updates in the last week or so.

Here's an update with the previous version for comparison, with lines indicating height (Blue/1 = New and Red/2 = Previous version).



Haven't made the shins unique yet, as im still working on their general shape. Moved the calves up, increased the height of the base overall, tried to make the neck more obvious, changed the stomach and various other smaller changes.

Also trying to make it around 6-6 1/2 heads in length, as well as applying some techniques and information i've learnt in a human anatomy and proportion book.

Sorry for also spending so much time on the base, at this point it's more of a general anatomy thing then pixel-art, but im interested in seeing if it can translate into pixel-art medium. I do feel im learning more and finding better ways of representing limbs, the body etc, but it's still a long way to go before it's anywhere near good.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2014 at 8:26am
Another update, this time on the bigger version:



I'm unsure of what muscles should be portrayed. I'm still trying to get the chest down, not sure if it should be rounded or more like this:

http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2012/268/2/7/dirty_anatomy_lesson__male_3_4_front_by_stevegibson-d5fuyrl.jpg

Any advice on what im getting wrong in terms of portraying anatomy would be wonderful, as at this point im just looking at books and revising what i've done.
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Quote MrHai Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2014 at 11:31am
Regarding the pectorals, I would say it's a stylistic choice whether to make them rounded or angular. Whatever looks coolest to you. In real life they'll generally be rounder, but it's debatable how well (or what level of) realism will serve you in a pixeled sprite.

I realise you probably haven't gotten to the feet yet, but just make sure you take note of how the legs/feet are pointing in different directions in the image you linked. That is the most awkward part of your sprite right now, I think.

Your arm also looks a bit too long, and your bicep looks wider wider than your shoulder which is also a bit awkward.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2014 at 12:57pm
Thanks for the advice MrHai!

Made a quick edit with your words in mind:



Tried to make the shoulder-bicep disparity less obvious, also shortened it slightly. I tried to show some more of the musclature on the stomach, hopefully it doesn't detract from it. I also ended up adding a new colour, as dark lines for the muscles detracted from the overall piece, hopefully there isn't too much banding.

As you can see i haven't changed the feet, but i have removed them, will work on them at some point, when i'm done with legs and chest, legs will probably require a redo at somepoint, mainly the calves.

Edit:

Quick attempt at feet as well as editing the stomach, head, shoulders and legs:



Probably will try to do the feet again, unhappy with left leg, i feel it lacks context.


Edited by AshCrimson - 04 October 2014 at 1:43pm
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2014 at 9:45am
Another smallish-update:



Finally added the right arm. Having a few issues with it, so any help on it would be wonderful:

I'm not sure how proportionate it should be to the left arm.
Does it detract from the 3/4th view? Does it look more full-on instead?
How occluded should it be by the chest?
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Quote MrHai Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2014 at 3:55pm
I feel his upper torso and arms look disproportionately buff compared to the rest of him. I would hide his left arm a bit more behind his body, yes. I quite like the stomach. His left leg is better, but his right leg is worse than last version.

:)
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2014 at 11:51pm
Is it the muscle detail that makes the upper torso and arms look disproportionately buff? If so i can remove them, or is it the size?
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MrHai
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Quote MrHai Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2014 at 5:30am
Sorry, I should have specified - it's the size/width. You can probably pad his midriff/hips and legs a bit to bring it in line with the shoulders/arms, or if you want a leaner look, shave off some width on the arms and reduce the shoulder width a little.
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2014 at 5:46am
He needs more z depth for how bulky he is. 
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2014 at 7:38am
Originally posted by MrHai

Sorry, I should have specified - it's the size/width. You can probably pad his midriff/hips and legs a bit to bring it in line with the shoulders/arms, or if you want a leaner look, shave off some width on the arms and reduce the shoulder width a little.


Like this?



I widened the hips as well slightly, also changed his left foot. Also shaded his side more, though if it detracts i can replace it.

Originally posted by jtfjtfjtf

He needs more z depth for how bulky he is. 


Z-Depth? I'm not familiar with that term apologies.

Just want to say, thanks for your patience and help you've given me so far, i know it's probably annoying seeing me doing the same thing again and again.


Edited by AshCrimson - 06 October 2014 at 7:39am
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Quote cure Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2014 at 7:49am
Look up the x y and z axes. Basically the dude is thin like a paper doll. Define the side more. I'd also work on those paw feet and give him more hips. Pecs seem a little high maybe, delts are too long, pay attention to where the deltoid and bicep actually anchor. Also know how the skull connects to the spine, otherwise you'll just have the head growing out of the neck.

Edited by cure - 06 October 2014 at 7:50am
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2014 at 9:11am
Would shading be enough to define his left side more? Hopefully i didn't misunderstand/misinterpret your post.

Here's an extremely rough and quick edit of what i mean/intend:



Also shifted the stomach, chest and waist to the left, as i think it might help  with the issues around depth (or lack off)


Edited by AshCrimson - 06 October 2014 at 9:53am
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2014 at 8:41am
A small update:



Changed the head, tried to make it look more dimensional, shifted the chest, put the right arm more behind the chest and changed the feet.
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2014 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by AshCrimson

[QUOTE=MrHai]

Z-Depth? I'm not familiar with that term apologies.



The depth axis in the xyz axes. It's helpful to always try to imagine the core shapes underneath everything.

Your shading is pretty dark on the side of the body in relation to the background. One thing you can do to help it pop if you want to keep it dark is put some bounced light on it.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2014 at 10:55am
I'm pretty hopeless at this anatomy thing, so thanks for persevering with me:



Removed the darker shading, as my intention with shading the chest was to indicate the ribcage.

Also included medium sized base, but im focusing mainly on the bigger one as a way to assist me with getting better with anatomy.


Edited by AshCrimson - 08 October 2014 at 11:09am
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2014 at 8:29am
Tried to change the chest, to reflect the 3/4 view i am going for, as well as trying to shape the ribcage more:



Apologies for the slow going on this.

Kind of frustrated with my inability to recreate a semi-accurate human form, might try other stuff eventually if it keeps burning me out.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2014 at 7:57am
Decided to re-do it, with help from Loomis' Figure Drawing book and pixelation:


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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2014 at 7:39am
Decided to try a full frontal view and if i can manage to portray that then move back to the 3/4 view.

I've also been consulting Loomis and the anatomy book i have as well as pictures of skeletons, in an attempt to aid me in getting the skeleton somewhere near being correct. I'm hoping it get it down and then use it as a basis to flesh out the muscles, if that makes any sense?

Here's an updated attempt so far, with a previous version for comparison:



I realise the number rib's don't both add up to 24, but i thought i might as well include them for completion's sake. I also tried to indicate the shoulder blades with green.
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2014 at 12:19pm
Ribs 11 and 12 are floating ribs, so they don't connect to the sternum like the others. There are 5 lumbar vertebrae between the sacrum (thing between the hip bones) and the vertebrae that the ribs attach to.

If you want a really in depth and exhaustive book about anatomy, Human Anatomy For Artists by Eliot Goldfinger is very good.


Edited by jtfjtfjtf - 14 October 2014 at 3:54pm
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Quote PixelSnader Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2014 at 7:56pm
Not sure if you're going for realistic or are heavily stylizing this anatomy practice (which seems counterproductive) but that person looks rather broad and stumpy. Or like a toddler with a super small head.

Short neck, short legs, big ribcage etc. Overlay it with http://www.hubimg.com/u/7498735_f520.jpg to see what I mean. Keep in mind that having overall correct proportions is more important than knowing the topology of bones.

Edited by PixelSnader - 14 October 2014 at 8:00pm

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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2014 at 10:35am
Thanks for the advice! I'll take a look at that book when possible, jtfjtfjtf!

Here's an update:



Are the preportions still off alot?

(Previous version for comparison)


Edited by AshCrimson - 15 October 2014 at 10:36am
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2014 at 8:39am
Another update, tried to make things more proportionate:

A quick update:



Wasn't sure if both the fibula and tibula are straight or need to be slightly curved. I think the head still might be out of proportion.
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2014 at 1:19pm
Their ends bulge out. The bulges create the ankle nubs that are noticeable on the fully built body. The inside one, the tibia, is higher than the outside one.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 18 October 2014 at 10:10am
Thanks for the advance Jtf, will change them!

Update:

Sorry for the slow progress, spent a few hours looking at arms today.

I'm currently reworking the feet and hands as well as trying to slowly add muscles on them, I'll post pictures when i've gotten them done

Here's some highly simplified muscle placement on the arms also tried to make the arm look uh, more arm like:



Key:

Blue = Deltoid
Yellow = Triceps
Pink = Biceps
Green = Brachio
Red = Flexor
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 19 October 2014 at 9:43am




Came to the realization that it's more about depicting what muscles show through the skin and are prominent then necessarily every oneof the muscles.

Basically redone the arms, chest and legs, trying to depict the lines of the muscles that actually show through, but right now it's basically a simplified version.

Also overlaid the skeleton on top it of it, just to ensure it still looks vaguely anatomically correct in terms of bones etc.

Feet have changed slightly, still trying to figure out how to make them and the ankles noticeable, but not take up too much space/look out of proportion.


Edited by AshCrimson - 19 October 2014 at 9:44am
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 19 October 2014 at 2:09pm
Your pecs should be lower and the abs transition to the groin is odd.

One thing you should start looking at for the fully built body is how fat accumulates on the body also how the muscles develop if someone works out. For example Arnold Schwarzeneggar's pecs are so big they cover his top two abs. Really big body builders don't get bigger in their ankles and wrists because there isn't a lot of muscle there.

You can then do a lot of body morphology stuff for things like creatures. For example, the Hulk has a big jaw, wrists, and ankles and that's big bones in addition to having really exaggerated muscles. 
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2014 at 5:34am
Thanks again for the advice JTF! I've decided to enlarge the skeleton because i realise that some of the details needed for the muscles aren't possible in the previous version's size:




A very quick attempt at a larger skeleton, probably needs more refining. Tried to get the feet closer and to make sure the forearms aren't dead straight also i realise the skull's pretty bad, and maybe the ribs need to be closer to the pelvis.
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2014 at 3:17pm
Feet are able to touch each other in the normal range of motion. The angle of the leg bones are just going to change. Also, the bones bugle out at the top and bottom. If you can't see the bulge from the angle you're viewing at then that's okay.

Other problems; number of ribs, one too many. The top of the sternum widens and connects to the collar bones. Number of vertebrae between ribs and hips. There are five and then the top two you've included as lumbar should be connected to the floating ribs.
Head proportion also needs work. The brow is 1/3rd down from the top, the eye line is at the center of the head, the nasal line 2/3rds down and the mouth line is 1/3 down from the nasal line. That's usually in the middle of the upper row of teeth. If you draw a line from the center point at the side to the corner of the jaw you can get the general area for teeth width. The sides of the head are also flat-ish.

I think exercises that could be helpful are doing a turnaround, back view and from the top, and also placing the bones and muscles on pictures you've found. This will help for 3 dimensional placement identification. As i've mentioned before playing around with body morphology is a lot of fun. And then you can do weight, motion, and posing and the body in space, which is one of the reasons I like Loomis' book a lot. He considers all these things. And you've already shown a lot of interest in animation and posing so that's good.   
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2014 at 2:42pm
Sorry for the lack of updates recently! A combination of being busy with other stuff and a lack of access to computers and the internet has resulted in me doing very little at the moment.



Rough attempt at muscles (skull isn't mine). Hopefully this addresses some of the problems you mentioned jtfjtfjtf!

Went the extra step and tried also to practice doing the actual skin as well:


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Quote SuperTurnip Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2014 at 12:20pm
I think this person lacks a crotch. Sorry for saying it in plain terms, but you could just put a neutral something there. Also, the legs seem to curve so drastically that it's a little awkward. There are muscles on the inside of the thigh that should bring them close to touching (probably more natural if they do touch in that pose). If you're in need of more resources, here is your new favorite website of random skinless people posing (I joke, but it's a great resource): Posemaniacs
Try the tools such as the negative space drawer. They really show how the body looks, and help provide a supplement to the hard anatomy.

By the way, this looks AWESOME, you have really progressed and this is simply great to behold. Keep up the good work.
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2014 at 12:30am
The inside leg muscles should be filled out some more. On an 8 head body the groin will reach the mid point. The widest point on the legs also looks to be off for the pose. It should be around that top femur nub.

Also, work out the abs, the obliques, and the serratus, which lock into the obliques like you did with the skin body. And sometimes you can see the lat covering the serratus a little bit. That entire area is pretty glossed over on the muscle body. One reason the groin looks iffy is because the abs weren't worked out. The bottom pair, which are long will extend all the way to the groin.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2014 at 9:59am
Thanks for the comments guys, will work on it.

Just want to clarify something; im not wanting to be a slave to anatomical correctness as much as i want to be able to to make characters that look "right" if that makes sense?

Ideally, i'd like to go back to making some of the stuff similar to what i did on the previous and apply what i learn from this as well. At some point i'll revise the smaller versions i've done and post them, hopefully what i've learnt will help me improve them.
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2014 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by AshCrimson

Thanks for the comments guys, will work on it.

Just want to clarify something; im not wanting to be a slave to anatomical correctness as much as i want to be able to to make characters that look "right" if that makes sense?

Ideally, i'd like to go back to making some of the stuff similar to what i did on the previous and apply what i learn from this as well. At some point i'll revise the smaller versions i've done and post them, hopefully what i've learnt will help me improve them.


I'd say for smaller dynamic stuff proportion knowledge, movement points, and gesture are more important than really knowing hard anatomy. Silhouetting exercises can be very helpful as well. Particularly if you're going to do guys wearing clothes and armor. Gesture and flow of energy are very important for helping make things look dynamic. Here's a video that explains it pretty well in a short amount of time on a static piece involving two characters:
http://youtu.be/FQqMztFZb8Y?t=22m36s
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2014 at 9:52am
Originally posted by jtfjtfjtf

Originally posted by AshCrimson

Thanks for the comments guys, will work on it.

Just want to clarify something; im not wanting to be a slave to anatomical correctness as much as i want to be able to to make characters that look "right" if that makes sense?

Ideally, i'd like to go back to making some of the stuff similar to what i did on the previous and apply what i learn from this as well. At some point i'll revise the smaller versions i've done and post them, hopefully what i've learnt will help me improve them.


I'd say for smaller dynamic stuff proportion knowledge, movement points, and gesture are more important than really knowing hard anatomy. Silhouetting exercises can be very helpful as well. Particularly if you're going to do guys wearing clothes and armor. Gesture and flow of energy are very important for helping make things look dynamic. Here's a video that explains it pretty well in a short amount of time on a static piece involving two characters:
http://youtu.be/FQqMztFZb8Y?t=22m36s


Thanks for the video!

Yeah i get what you mean. I'm trying to incorporate this, whilst at the same making sure it's not totally absurd or overly exaggerated.

Practiced doing a stance for some dude wielding a two handed sword:



Based the legs off of this picture:



Sorry for the very low quality, kind of threw it together an hour ago, and i want to ensure i got the pose right, as i may animate it. Sorry if it looks static, i wanted to try that line of action thing the video showed, but i didn't want to over exaggerate it ever.


Edited by AshCrimson - 03 November 2014 at 9:52am
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2014 at 10:12pm
For the pose, remember to check proportion. The green leg is bending too high. Also, in an animation the different frames aren't all going to be super high energy. The pose you have is pretty relaxed which is fine, and then if it goes into the reference picture you can see the old guy bending a little more and loading up his energy for the strike. If you read comic books the most high energy action shots are usually after impact where energy from one character is following through and impacting the other character or object. But they have to just choose one snapshot.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2014 at 11:31am
Haven't animated for a while, so i am a tad rusty, but here's my quick attempt at an idle stance and a new stance (more of a practice tbh):



Trying to get this silhouetting, whilst ensuring the limbs are minimally visible thing down.

Edit: I've changed the leg as well, but i fear the bend still might be too high.

Also sorry for the really poor quality of the recent two posts, i realise my problem is not so much the finer details, but the readability of the limbs and body as a whole. I may have been too caught up in getting every muscle line down, rather than focusing on the general shape.


Edited by AshCrimson - 04 November 2014 at 11:36am
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 11:50am
Made some smaller stuff, to practice movement of limbs in an easier manner:



Trying to get this swaying stance thing down.



Some idle stuff with a dude with a spear.
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 11:55am
These last two may not be perfect but they are charming as they are.
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Quote RebeaLeion Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 11:57am
may I ask how do you animate your sprites - frame by frame hand by hand or... (?)
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by RebeaLeion

may I ask how do you animate your sprites - frame by frame hand by hand or... (?)


He better be or else he's banned   
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by RebeaLeion

may I ask how do you animate your sprites - frame by frame hand by hand or... (?)


Frame by Frame. It's not a fast or efficient way of doing, but it's the only way i know how. I use GraphicsGale (not the free version, since you can't create gifs) if that is of any interest.

Jalonso:

Thanks, trying to get movement down, but also trying to keep in mind that i don't want it to look too exagerated.


Edited by AshCrimson - 05 November 2014 at 12:13pm
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Quote RebeaLeion Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2014 at 12:22pm
Ok thanks for quick answer ! I watched your anatomy in this thread, bodies're good! I just wondered how did you animate all the stuff, someone said that I should use some 2D bone animation software, but I think I will stick to graphics gale frame by frame when other spriters do it here as well! Your answer helped me with a decision.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2014 at 4:36am
Does anyone have any tips for dealing with the lighting of the planes of the body? I realise for the smaller ones this doesn't apply, but for the medium and larger bases, the lack of proper understanding of lighting and my inability to depict it leads my attempts to look flat.

I'll try to post an example of where im where at, at the moment, later.
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2014 at 8:06am
This is what i meant by my previous post:



Green line = Older version

Yellow = Newer one

Mainly worked on the chest, to try to make it seem less flat. Arms haven't changed much and legs haven't changed at all.
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2014 at 9:10am
Lighting can be complicated because it deals with a few things. The lighting itself, the forms, and also the materials. Breaking down the body into basic forms and then lighting those can help. For example there are a lot of of cylinders making up your body.  
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2014 at 9:49am
I understand what you mean. My main issue is with the legs and arms; trying to strike the balance between the area/planes that would shaded and the one's that would be illuminated is tricky atm, especially as it affects the form of the limbs, and im also trying to convey a 3/4th non-flat view as well.
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BathMaster_2000
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Quote BathMaster_2000 Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2014 at 4:04am
This is looking absolutely amazing so far. You've progressed a lot. Keep up the good work!
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jtfjtfjtf
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Quote jtfjtfjtf Replybullet Posted: 12 November 2014 at 10:12am
Originally posted by AshCrimson

I understand what you mean. My main issue is with the legs and arms; trying to strike the balance between the area/planes that would shaded and the one's that would be illuminated is tricky atm, especially as it affects the form of the limbs, and im also trying to convey a 3/4th non-flat view as well.


Things will enter into shade when the plane starts turning away from the light source. It's important for you to know how your forms sit in 3d space and also what kind of lighting you want.
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AshCrimson
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Quote AshCrimson Replybullet Posted: 13 November 2014 at 11:31am
Thanks for the advice, going to continue to read up on forms and shading. Here's a quick update, removed some unnecessary shading on the legs and chest, trying to keep the darker shades to imply depth. Hopefully it has a better look and impact than my previous, more liberal use of it:



If i am going in the wrong direction, i don't mind going back and putting more shadows in. Sorry if it looks flatter,
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