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pyrometal
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Topic: Pixels.club Website Dev
    Posted: 23 April 2017 at 7:01pm
Thought I would post this here for discussion!



Should look very familiar to everybody. Threw this together today, it's all static content and nowhere near complete.

The domain name already belongs to me, though I am unsure if this is worth pursuing any further...

Any thoughts out there?
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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2017 at 7:53am
Needs more art than that on the front page, that's been a common complaint about PJ's front page and you're repeating the same mistake. Don't limit yourself to one row! Let almost everything above the fold be art, with just the upper edge of non-art content to show that it's there.

Black/white is very high-contrast and will be tiring to look at, I recommend drawing inspiration from PJ's default grey skin, Pixelation's tan, or even DevArt's green - they use low-saturation midtones as backgrounds so that they don't tire the eyes as quickly, and so that art displayed on those backgrounds has generally "neutral" surroundings (PJ's grey is the best for that), so that the site has only a minimal effect on the way each submission looks.

Nitpick: Put some more space between the settings and logout buttons, it looks really easy to misclick! I've seen other sites do it like that and it's tripped me up so many times, and I have good eyesight! Since this isn't a banking site and there's generally no harm in not logging out, you could even hide the logout link in the settings dropdown or whatever.
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pyrometal
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2017 at 4:19pm
Thanks for the feedback eishiya 

I agree that the front page needs to display more art. I was planning on making the art section much more dynamic, with new art loading every 10 seconds or so and selected with some randomization.

I've always had a thing for high contrast designs, but will revisit my choice in this context. Wouldn't want to detract attention away from the art...

Nitpick noted! I will increase the size of the buttons

I'll try and post updates as I make more progress, stay tuned!
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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2017 at 6:22am
I don't recommend the automatic art-loading, or at least make it opt-out. Generally, when one loads a page, one expects that it stays the way it is until they choose to reload it or do something to make it change. What if it reloads while I was scanning it? What if I see some interesting thumbnails but leave them for later because something distracts me? I want the page to be there as I found it until I'm ready for it to change.
Maybe instead make it like on Twitter, where it just checks how much new content there is and displays "(3 new submissions)" near the "New Pixel Art Header" and if you click that, it'll load and display the new stuff.

In any case, I think I'd prefer a New section with no randomization and just more slots. Randomization is good for relatively static content, like the Hall of Fame and perhaps the Weekly Showcase. The New section is dynamic enough that it doesn't need that.
However, if you want to give underdogs that didn't get attention their first time around in the New row, why not have a second row that randomly showcases pieces from the past week that are older than anything in the New row (or perhaps just from yesterday to 7 days ago) which have not received much attention (few favs/ratings/whatever)? I think having a second row would be better than overriding the way most people expect a "New" row to work.


I just now took a look at the menu text (the contrast kept me from reading it before). What are "News", "Tools" and "Community"? Shouldn't the news be on the front page? If "Community" is the forum, please call it "Forum" so it's clear.
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pyrometal
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2017 at 6:55pm
All valid points; I am reworking the art display section incorporating your feedback.

The menu has submenu items not visible it the image. For example, "Community" has a "Forums" submenu item along with some others. I expect this section will change a lot through the dev iterations though.

Not to worry, news will be on the front page for sure . The site will need a place to check out news archives though, which would be accessed through that link (or something similar).

The intent is to also have the latest forum activity feature on the front page somewhere.


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pyrometal
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2017 at 12:16pm
Here are some updates!

LIVE PREVIEW HERE

Notes:
  • The icons are placeholders for now. I need to create some vector art for them.
  • I didn't write any JS, therefore no fancy animations / functionality is implemented yet
  • The main content area displays a ton more art
  • The revised color scheme should be less eye straining now

As always, any / all feedback is very appreciated!


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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2017 at 6:20am
> Javascript
> animations
CSS is all you need 8]

Also, a humble request: If you're going to use JS for functionality, please make the site look decent and function without it as well. It's fine to do async updates in JS, but keep the main functionality out of JS please.

Definitely less eye-straining. I presume the thumbnails won't have a purple background?

I think having "Your favourites" on the front page is redundant. I've seen those before, I don't need to see them again most of the time - and when I do, my favourites page should be easily accessible. Plus, many people favourite very few things, so "this month" they might have no new favs. Another art site I'm on recently added a feature like this and I feel it's a waste of space on the front page.
Maybe replace it with submissions from the artists one follows? PJ's follow system is meaningless, but something like that would make it useful (just make sure follows aren't automatically mutual).

I notice it says "All times" next to showcase. Does that mean it's the Hall of Fame rather than the weekly tops like PJ's Weekly Showcase? Personally, I'd prefer to see the Weekly Showcase, with fresher art. It might be neat if Hall of Fame pieces (all-time tops) were mixed in at a low ratio (1:4?) into the Random section instead, so it's a mix of almost-certainly-good along with the usual grab bag that is random.

I think having the chatterbox on the left of the art is a bad idea because it's almost the first thing users will see, when that should be the art. I think where PJ has it is best - below the art. Below or next to the art, I think it also looks better to the right - that's where most non-core-functionality sidebars tend to go on sites written in L-to-R languages like English, even when there is no core-functionality sidebar. Putting it on the left just gives it too much prominence, and makes the whole site feel unbalanced imho.

I realize you've already bought the domain, but I can't say I'm fond of "PixelManiacs." It doesn't sound very classy xP In a lot of languages, "maniac" and its cognates have only negative connotations and no positive ones. Don't forget that even if the site is in English, it'll be exposed and hopefully used by a global audience.

Nitpick: The middle of the art area has a + shape formed by the four sections. It draws attention and feels off somehow. In comics, when this happens between comic panels, it's called "gutter crash" and is usually avoided except in those cases where it's done for effect (and where the gutters are thin and low-contrast enough not to draw attention - not the case here, especially once there's art in those thumbnails). You can avoid it by adopting a more tatami-like arrangement (tatami arrangements specifically avoid + shapes, supposedly because they're inauspicious, but that belief likely started because they're distracting). It might be tough to make look orderly with an even number of sections, though.

Nitpick 2: The icons next to the menu items and section titles need more breathing room, they're too close to the corresponding text.

All my complaints aside though, it's looking better for your design choices (and not just mine xP).
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pyrometal
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2017 at 8:57am
Originally posted by eishiya

If you're going to use JS for functionality, please make the site look decent and function without it as well.
Can and will do! I use JS mainly to enhance site functionality.

Originally posted by eishiya

I presume the thumbnails won't have a purple background?
They won't

Originally posted by eishiya

I think having "Your favourites" on the front page is redundant. I've seen those before, I don't need to see them again most of the time - and when I do, my favourites page should be easily accessible. Plus, many people favourite very few things, so "this month" they might have no new favs. Another art site I'm on recently added a feature like this and I feel it's a waste of space on the front page.
Maybe replace it with submissions from the artists one follows? PJ's follow system is meaningless, but something like that would make it useful (just make sure follows aren't automatically mutual).
You make many good points here!
  1. Love the "art from fav artists" idea and I will make this the default
  2. There will be options in the user's settings to modify the sections that are displayed on the front page. Not everyone is interested in seeing the same things.
  3. I envision a follower system that works in a similar way to what DeviantArt currently does.


Originally posted by eishiya

I notice it says "All times" next to showcase. Does that mean it's the Hall of Fame rather than the weekly tops like PJ's Weekly Showcase? Personally, I'd prefer to see the Weekly Showcase, with fresher art. It might be neat if Hall of Fame pieces (all-time tops) were mixed in at a low ratio (1:4?) into the Random section instead, so it's a mix of almost-certainly-good along with the usual grab bag that is random.
The "all times" / "this month" wording is clickable and can be switched to your prefered time range for each individual section . "This Week" is one of the options in the list. Might add a hint to make it more obvious that you can do that. For the random section, what you describe is what I actually intended to do!

Originally posted by eishiya

I think having the chatterbox on the left of the art is a bad idea because it's almost the first thing users will see, when that should be the art. I think where PJ has it is best - below the art. Below or next to the art, I think it also looks better to the right - that's where most non-core-functionality sidebars tend to go on sites written in L-to-R languages like English, even when there is no core-functionality sidebar. Putting it on the left just gives it too much prominence, and makes the whole site feel unbalanced imho.
I knew someone was bound to comment about this . The truth is that putting the chat on the right was causing me a lot of layout issues and that is the only reason I moved it there for now. It will be moved back. I'll have to disagree that PJ does the chat correctly though since it forces users to a different page in order to use it.

Originally posted by eishiya

I realize you've already bought the domain, but I can't say I'm fond of "PixelManiacs." It doesn't sound very classy xP In a lot of languages, "maniac" and its cognates have only negative connotations and no positive ones. Don't forget that even if the site is in English, it'll be exposed and hopefully used by a global audience.
Finding good names that aren't already taken is very hard . In both French and English, maniacs can mean someone who is very enthusiastic about a particular thing. Bought it for 10$ so it would be a huge loss if I change my mind. I'm open to suggestions . Maybe a ".club" domain name?

Originally posted by eishiya

Nitpick: The middle of the art area has a + shape formed by the four sections. It draws attention and feels off somehow. In comics, when this happens between comic panels, it's called "gutter crash" and is usually avoided except in those cases where it's done for effect (and where the gutters are thin and low-contrast enough not to draw attention - not the case here, especially once there's art in those thumbnails). You can avoid it by adopting a more tatami-like arrangement (tatami arrangements specifically avoid + shapes, supposedly because they're inauspicious, but that belief likely started because they're distracting). It might be tough to make look orderly with an even number of sections, though.
The layout is actually fluid and if there was enough space, 3 (or more) of the blocks would be in the first row, so it's hard to predict... maybe get rid of the full outlines?

Originally posted by eishiya

Nitpick 2: The icons next to the menu items and section titles need more breathing room, they're too close to the corresponding text.
Easy fix!


I gather you would be interested in joining if ever this goes live?

Anyway, thanks a million for the feedback once again! You are the best

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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2017 at 11:18am
Not going to reply in detail because it'd mostly just be "that makes sense!/I see" xP

If you add a dropdown triangle icon next to the time selectors, it should be clearer. Nice and easy to fix.

With PJ doing the chatbox right I just meant the placement on the front page, not the godawful functionality xP Having it be properly interactive would be great. I think if you put it on the right and below the art, that should help avoid layout issues, since it would just be a simple layout there, with no interaction with the more complex upper part.


As for the + thing, I don't have any real suggestions. Removing the side/bottom outlines might help (as well as make the whole thing more compact, possibly fitting more art!), but the bigger problem is the space, which can't be condensed sufficiently without making the boundaries between boxes unclear. I'd probably go for a fixed layout (or a set of fixed layouts based on the number of boxes to display) but have the widths flexible, but I don't know how well that works with what you imagine.


As for my interest in joining - noooot particularly. If it's better than PJ in terms of functionality (not hard to do!) and how well it suits my habits, and if people start moving there from PJ, then sure. I'm not the early adopter sort myself.


Lastly, names: Names definitely are hard, yeah. Global names even more so. I don't know about other users, but I'd love to be able to use my gallery as a portfolio, and I just wouldn't feel comfortable linking to a site called "pixelmaniacs" to a stranger xP In Russian, "maniac" can also mean someone who is very enthusiastic about something, but it has a largely negative connotation, someone too enthusiastic, to the detriment of their own or others' well-being. In English, I also mainly see it used negatively, though not quite as bad as in Russian.

Sadly the newer TLDs like .club aren't as well-accepted yet, in that they still sound "illegitimate" and untrustworthy ): Domain parkers have ruined everything for everyone, hahah.
I'm afraid to even post name ideas that aren't taken for fear of bots buying them up e_e Some ideas that have at least one of the major TLDs available:
PixelFixel (appropriate if the site has a focus and tools for providing critique, rather than being a passive gallery).
PixelMixer (...probably more appropriate for a pixel art editor than a gallery though)
PushThePixel(s) (not sure how much I like this one, but has a nice acronym and works as a pixel art thing even if you don't get the wordplay)
PixelSquares (self-deprecating wordplay, but works even for non-native speakers if the site's visuals are square-based - which they currently are!)

I kind of hope this site could become the successor to PJ, and that perhaps you could finagle the pixeljoint.com domain from PJ ;D
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2017 at 7:59pm
I think I've managed to fix most of the issues we've discussed today

Even found and bought another better domain name -> pixels.club. It's short, expressive, and doesn't give any negative connotations (I think). There is just the matter of the TLD I guess...

I'll continue to work hard and make this project a worthy successor to PJ. I'll make you all want to join

Stay tuned for the next update!
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2017 at 1:05am
How have I not seen this thread before? Cool stuff Pyro! I'll dive into this and give you my extended feedback soon!

Oh and, pixels.club is a cool name/domain! :D
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Quote CritiqueMyWork Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2017 at 6:13am
I would only display new pixel art and a monthly top. 
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Quote Axolotl Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2017 at 7:58am
Been meaning to ask.  Will you remember people who use ancient old systems with slow wifi connections?
That's what's cool about PJ, small detail makes me feel really welcome here.
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Quote JerryPie Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2017 at 10:59am
Great stuff here Pyro.. I agree with others, I think only Monthly top and Newest should be showcased at all times. Nothing else.

You may consider having a side panel or lower panel available at all times that show links to previous months. You could simply make them small text links like "July 2016, June 2016, May 2016, etc.. PJ makes it sort of difficult, I always had to just edit the URL to see previous monthly submissions.

Keep it up, i'll be watching this for sure.
Eat babies.
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2017 at 9:31pm
@Hapiel: Thanks! Wait until the next update for detailed feedback since many things have changed

@CritiqueMyWork, JerryPie: Noted! I plan to allow for opt-in/out of having certain sections show up on the main page. And I'll find a way to allow navigating back in time easily.

@Axolotl: Yes, will make the site easy on resources as much as possible without compromising usability!

Thanks for the feedback / encouragement / interest you guys
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2017 at 4:34am
So... a PJ push.
I've thought about that for years, to the point where I even had web developers give quotes to me for building what you're building.

I hope you don't underestimate the work you're getting yourself into. A project like this can only succeed if you're in it for the long run!

There are many larger and smaller thoughts I have about the functionality, design, community management, priorities, etc. like most PJers probably do.

But most importantly, I hope you're interested in preparing this project for a system where you are not the sole owner & manager. This is my main critique on pixeljoint. On the moderation level things have worked out pretty well here. Moderators have been able to contribute, feel responsible and were replaceable. However, one level higher, owning and maintaining the site, the community relies on a single person.
If you can't tackle that specific issue, the project is doomed to end up the same as PJ, at some point. If you find a way to share your project with the community, there might be a chance.

I'm very curious about your long term plan, and would love to talk and think more soon! Message me if you need a faster exchange of ideas :)


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Quote EdJr Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2017 at 10:23am
I think others have discussed what I think well enough, so I'll just say kudos for having the courage to start this project! I think many people have wanted to do this, but it does take a lot of work with no promise of return. Hapiel pretty much summed up how I feel about this (and there's also what I said in the chatterbox). The possibility of abandonment is scary, so I would definitely pay attention to the "multi-admin" idea. (By the way, Hapiel, if you don't mind, I'd also love to talk about this!)
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2017 at 2:03pm
So... how are your plans developing, Pyro?
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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2017 at 9:41pm
Worry not, I'm still working at it!  See at the bottom of the post for my thoughts on a long term plan for this project.
 
--> LIVE PREVIEW #2 <--


Notes:
  • Complete rework of the html and css. Much cleaner and semantically correct than before
  • Using "Font Awesome" for the icons
  • Overhaul of the style to make the look and feel more modern and clean
  • Settling for shades of copper for the controls, vice the grating purple shades from before
  • The left navigation can be expanded to reveal the icon titles! Try it!
  • Improved layout responsiveness for different screen sizes (think mobile devices)
  • Side chat removed as it was occupying too much space. Still trying to think of a good solution for it...
  • Working on misc widgets in the test area



Long Term Planning / Concerns:


Joint Developmen
t - Absolutely a must down the road. For now, the development is on my local machine since I am still in this project's infancy. Once I deploy the content to a proper web host, I will be looking for other volunteers that want to contribute. Collab will likely be via GitHub or similar.


Co-ownership - This issue is a lot more complex as there are a bunch of legal ramifications here. I'll have to look into it more. Perhaps I just need to define it in my Last Will and pass control to another trusted Dev? As far as I am concerned, there can be only one (yes that's a Highlander reference ). That person is ultimately tagged with paying the web hosting fees...


Multiple Admins/Mods - Yes, there will be many of each to keep the site running smoothly. This is a must in my opinion.


PJ Replacement or Coexisting Site? - Much of this depends on my ability to contact and convince Sedge... Here are the courses of action in order of preference:
1 - PJ Upgrade - I successfully convince Sedge to work with me. We develop scripts to transition all the data to the new system and once ready we shutdown PJ for a few hours. The PJ name goes on and the pixel.club name is no more.

2 - pixel.club - The site goes up as a competing service to PJ. To ease adoption of the new platform, we do the following:
a - Offer automated account porting from PJ that recreates the user's gallery on the new site.

b - Offer a "settlers badge" to the first 500 or so new user, to be forever on display on there accounts. People love trophies, especially unique symbolic stuff like this.

c - Publicize. Get people talking. Post the new site as news in all the major pixel art communities out there (PJ, Pixelation, DeviantArt groups, Twitter, etc)

Worst Case Scenario
- Say we go through all this, implementing as a separate service and fail to take-off as a community, what next?
1 - Change the focus - Community building is hard, however producing tools and utilities for pixel art is not. We scrap the gallery/forum/chat and focus attention on:
a - Tools. In effect, the site become a repository of badass utils for all the other established communities to use.

b - Aggregation. Look at aggregating content from other platforms and present it on the site in one holistic view. This can be a bit of a challenge to pull off properly, but not impossible.
2 - Close shop - In the unlikely event that changing focus also fails, I shut things down permanently and cry myself to sleep for a month straight.

There are many other things I would like to discuss such as developing a "pixel art standard", but will refrain for now. I will revisit those closer to actually implementing the related features.

... Hope this is thorough enough for your tastes? Looking forward to the comments
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2017 at 3:03pm
I like how you seem prepared even for a "worst case scenario".

A quick comment on joint development: I'm a coder nor expert, but as I understand: Building a custom community platform and sharing the source code in public is a big risk. Your project will have security holes, and they are going to be relatively easy to find if anyone can browse through the code. Of course this also means that any volunteer can patch it, but this works out better for huge projects than it does for small ones.

I hope you find some possible solutions in your research for co-ownership. Being the head responsible for community management AND development AND finances is a terrible volunteer job.
There has got to be a way to set up a company, right?

As for the dev side: I like the improvements you've made. It looks promising, but obviously there is still a loooong way to go!

Now that you mentioned the long term dream, I also wonder about the short term. When do you wish for some things to be functional/usable? When can other people make meaningful contributions to your project, besides chatterbox discussions?

I'm still hoping that this might be the plan I've been dreaming about for years now

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Quote pyrometal Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2017 at 7:52pm
Building a custom community platform and sharing the source code in public is a big risk. Your project will have security holes, and they are going to be relatively easy to find if anyone can browse through the code.
I never said the code would be available publicly . GitHub offers private repos, for a price of course... We can expose the front-end code, but not the back-end stuff (that's where the risks are).


I hope you find some possible solutions in your research for co-ownership. Being the head responsible for community management AND development AND finances is a terrible volunteer job. There has got to be a way to set up a company, right?
Doesn't sound too bad to me, haha. Sounds more like a non-profit organization than a company though.


I also wonder about the short term. When do you wish for some things to be functional/usable? When can other people make meaningful contributions to your project, besides chatterbox discussions?
Once I have enough core functionality to display I will get a web host. From there I plan on going on a recruiting drive for interested devs and giving alpha testing access to some willing volunteers.

Before then though, I want to release a survey to get some insight out of what this community would want to see added/removed as features from this upgraded/new service. It'll cover a wide range of topics including, for example, what constitutes proper pixel art. Maybe you would like to help me out with this?
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 2:39am
Sure, can do.

company, organization, foundation, some entity that takes away personal responsibility... the formats and names vary so much from country to country ;)


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Quote EdJr Replybullet Posted: Today at 4:41pm
Thanks, pyro! I'd really like give a thorough reply, but I'll be short on time for the next days.... So, for now, I'll just ask two questions regarding your "PJ Replacement" scenario:

1. If you could convince sedge to cooperate (which would be awesome), then why not just work on improving PJ instead of moving everything to a new place? It doesn't make sense to me.

2a. That's another thing I've considered while thinking about my own project, but wouldn't that go against PJ's terms of service (see "Limitations on Use")? Again, it would come down to convincing sedge, which wouldn't be any better than convincing him to let us improve PJ itself. I don't know too much about this stuff, so feel free to correct me.
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