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Midshipman
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Quote ink Replybullet Topic: Looping animation WIP
    Posted: 22 April 2018 at 12:11pm
I've been working on this on and off for about two weeks now and feel like I am nearing the finishing stages. However, I still feel some things are off, but can't really say what exactly.

I had the sky move a bit more (background clouds) due to the strong wind and originally also planned a layer of fog, but found the just 12 frame loop would feel overbearing if I added too many moving objects. Maybe even cropping the picture or replacing a few colors would help? Or maybe it's fine as it is? I'm a bit at a loss and would be thankful for any insights.


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Hapiel
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2018 at 3:50pm
Hiya
Cool piece! You seem to heave put in a lot of effort already!

First thing, I wasn't sure what I was seeing. I thought it was some kind of swamp with water, and ghosts shooting through the water... But after looking at it for much longer, I'm guessing we're seeing the world upside down?
If the latter: Why are the bottoms of the trees dark? Since they point to the sky, they should be catching light right? While just around the edge, there should be no more light coming in, while on the front tree (the one the guy is standing on) the edge is even highlighted! Where is light coming from?

Also it is hard to read depth in this. The sky is so different further away,  it would almost seem as if it climbs uphill or so.

I think the animation can be much improved too. I like the effect on the cape with the various wind speeds, the increase and then drop. You coul synchronize this with the swinging character, who could speed to the right fast and then drop slowly back to the left, never really reaching the left side of the pendulum.
The cape it self offers a really nice opportunity to have nice waves going through the fabric. Now the curves are really random, try to have them all move from the left to the right, like a ripple going through water. You would probably have to redraw that. You can then have the edge be influenced by where the waves push you.

Good luck with this!
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2018 at 6:01pm
Thank you for your compliment and feedback!
I mostly do original work, but this is actually fanart since I'm currently really infatuated with the manga and anime Made in Abyss. The environment is the second layer of an Abyss of unknown depths, at least 3000 metres down into the earth. However, a force field in the middle of the abyss serves as a sort of own atmosphere, leading the light downward from the middle and obfuscating visibility through a downward cloud layer. The second layer is an upside-down forest with it's own weird fauna and flora. "Ozen the Immovable" (thus I thought it was funny if only the cape moved) is standing on a tree basically at the edge of the force field, which gives off a pinkish light, while further away there's a cave wall somewhere behind the sky.  http://www.anime-evo.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Made-in-Abyss-01-Header-700x385.jpg  She would be positioned at the edge of the green part in this map, while standing on the upper, brownish layer.

 http://www.anime-evo.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Made_In_Abyss_05_05.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/madeinabyss/images/b/bb/Inverted_forest.png/revision/latest?cb=20180202015606



I agree that I still need to do a lot with the sky, but since the environment is so odd as it is and I wanted to avoid dithering when possible smooth transitions like in the reference material are significantly harder to do, which puts me at a bit of a loss.

Redrawing the cape sounds horrific right now, but I'd better heed that advice. I tried for a ripple effect, but fear that I'm still rather clumsy with animation in general.
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Hapiel
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2018 at 6:27pm
Thanks for the reference pictures. It's still not clear to me where the light should come from then, but in this one it makes sense that the bottom of the trees is well lit.
http://www.anime-evo.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Made_In_Abyss_05_05.jpg
I think you should do that too, and remove the thick black outlines on the bottom.

As for the cape, draw just the (bottom) outline and animate that. Draw one frame, count 12 steps between each wave and then draw all those 12 in between steps. Don't space those 12 steps equally, put 5 really wide and 7 really narrow to get the strong wind various speed effects. After doing the outline it should be relatively easy to do the shading in the cape again.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2018 at 7:00pm
Thanks again. I fear it'll be a few days since I can show some progress since that's a lot to rework.
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NancyGold
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2018 at 4:51am
Cool, albeit a little crazy artwork! My main nitpick is that  these trees look more like mushrooms, i.e. their cups are too perfect.

Edit: ooops! just noticed your reference. Guess they are indeed mushrooms, with tree-like trunks. Still these anime stills show less perfect cups, and they have no leaves

Also, now, when I watched a few concept design videos, I could also notice a few problems with general composition idea. I.e. the picture is too messy, disjointed and not to the point: the general idea seems missing. Are these creatures friendly or what? And the character is standing without much purpose. For example, the mood would drastically change, if there was a climbing creature directly behind the character and the character itself was more wary.  It would be a nice idea to blur out background elements to attach viewer attention to important detail. I.e. use less frequency details on them or some fog.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2018 at 6:51am
The creatures aren't necessarily friendly, moreso fiercely territorial- They'll leave you alone and just keep watch once you're the right treelength away, though. I thought about adding the silhouette of a running one further back, but I fear too complex movements might show the loop for what it is too obviously.
I originally had a smile showing below the helmet, like here: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*9XesbICI0NPQTJslT8J8RQ.jpeg  But later deleted it for the time being. In the source material, Ozen is characterized as being fearless, cold, cruel and immovable physically as well as mentally. She's a demigod amongst humans who decided to live down in the second layer of the abyss even though it's extremely inhospitable to humans.
I should better communicate my intentions visually though so it's possible to get something from the picture without being familiar with the source material. It's easy to lose sight of that after having marathoned it very recently.


I started editing the trees and should be able to post a fresh WIP tomorrow probably.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2018 at 12:59pm

I've added a few colors to more obviously put the other trees further into the sort of foggy background and roughly sketched in some corrections for the back trees for a start.

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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2018 at 9:47am
 Is this going in the right direction regarding the animation? It's pretty rough still, but I'd rather get some input and corrections in before I refine it too much.


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Hapiel
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2018 at 12:58pm
I don't have a mouse with me, I would have wanted to make some corrections, but now I'll just try and describe a bit instead:

It's a good start, but there are a couple of weird things and jerky moments.

The end corner on the right should respond to the wave, not lead a life of it's own. It follows through on the wave as it's incoming, but because it has less weight it might make the move more exagerated. Now it often curls in the opposite direction.

Frame 8 suddenly is in a completely different position than frame 7.

The top of the cloak should move much less jerky. One time up and one time down stretched out over the 12 frames should probably work.

Ideally we'd be able to see this last blow before the wind calms down for a split second, we'd see that ripple through the cloak. There are like three beats going through the cloak now, three waves of wind come through every cycle. If it were one wave the cloak wouldn't ripple like that. But in the cloak there are 4 waves present at all time? I'm not sure if I'm completely right. BUt it does seem strange how these curves remain during the bit of rest. Of course some curves can exist in the cloth itself, like in a curtain, but it does seem kinda stretched near flat in the wind..

The cloak on the left top, that's coming over the shoulder around the arm, comes down in a very sudden way, maybe that should ripple down from the top a bit?

All complex to explain... There are quite a few flag in the wind references/animation tutorials out there, maybe have a quick look through those?

I also stumbled upon this video, which seems useful. And this reference!

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2018 at 7:49am
Well, I'm boring, but here is a hint - use reference
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cloack+on+the+wind

also, 3d editors usually have cloth and wind simulation, so if you really want to produce masterpiece, then starting from a 3d model wont be a bad idea. And it is much easier to explore ideas in 3d editor, than in photoshop. HINT: artists creating these old games, like Warcraft 2 and Age of Empires, used pre-rendered 3d models, and at the final stage refined them with pixelart, you can see that in alpha versions, where they had sketchy 3d artworks. Using 3d render you also get physically correct shadow maps.

And the difference between starting from 3d or drawing directly is very noticeable. For example, in Warcraft 1 and Dune 2, they pixeled it from scratch, so everything looks silly and badly animated, while in Warcradt 2 and Command & Conquer the same artists used 3d models, produced much better looking sprites.

And that applies to any modern art, not just pixelart. 3d tools are indispensable if you want to produce something competitive.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2018 at 1:06pm
To be honest, there was a slight language barrier with Hapiel's first explanation- I thought he meant the curves by waves and was thusly very confused, but still tried to apply that misunderstanding to the correction. (I feel in german I'd basically describe the curves as waves and vice versa).
I hadn't changed anything on my old starting file except the bottom outline yet but wanted to check in again because I knew something was off.

I'm familiar with the wave principle in, well, principle. Thanks for the time of you both in searching out these videos, but sadly, video references/tutorials are like brick walls to me. A friend owns a few books on animation that I'll try to borrow though, and Hapiels explanations help tremendously now that the wording is clear to me. Thanks again!

I reduced it to the bottom outline by it's own for a start:





There's some jank in all of them that I'm well aware of, but I'm trying to get the different wind speeds down again in principle first. I'm obviously really having trouble closing the loop, but I'll keep working on it and update this post if I feel I've got something better to show before anyone replies.





As for 3D animating it first, I'll have to decline there on the basis that I can 3D model alright, which I learned at university over the course of a semester, but am not familiar with rigging, animation and scripts in any of the 3D-software I'm familiar with (ZBrush and Cinema4D). This means that I would have to aquire one, or arguably multiple, new skillsets in order to create a reference to practice improving a correlated skill.
Of course I want to improve the animation, but my main intention was channeling my respect and admiration for the story and character this is related to, which is why I don't see the animation as integral enough to warrant an investion of time that immense.

I see the value of 3D as reference and as a medium, but still disagree on it's indispensibility, snv. I'm not here to argue, though. Thanks for your input.


Edit:
I think I'm getting closer.

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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2018 at 3:08pm
I've been gone visiting family and afterwards sick in bed for a few weeks.
This is how far I currently am with the cape:

Everything's still pretty rough around the edges.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2018 at 8:21pm
Yeah. That is nicer and less jerky.
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Hapiel
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Quote Hapiel Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2018 at 12:35am
Huge improvement! Well done! :D

And get well.. :S
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2018 at 8:07am
Thank you! I'm doing my best on both fronts. :)

I've reintegrated the character into the background again:



I'm not really sure how to really make the background sky and trees work, nor how to add the fog effect I originally intended without upping the color-count. Since I'm at 28 already, I'm rather nervous about that.

Edit:
Added more colors even before really getting to work on the fog.

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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2018 at 8:05am
Experimented around with how to do the fog effect. Am at 30 colors now and will experiment around a bit to see how to make it look like I actually want it to.

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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2018 at 4:32pm
You have enough dull purples in your initial 28 colours to achieve some nice fog effects, I think. I don't think you need to add more. You would lose some detail behind the fog by reusing colours, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all - obscuring detail is exactly what fog does.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2018 at 11:14am
You're right, I've already got enough colors.

I've cropped the picture a bit (excluding the swinging figure) to hopefully enhance the composition and worked a bit more on the fog effect.
I think the mist/clouds in the bottom left might be a bit too much and thus distracting, but with heavy wind implied in other places a static sky also looks off. No real idea what to do there.
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Quote Reo Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2018 at 12:05pm
Very good progress here! Just wanted to say that I think the clouds looked better when they weren't as bright. The white part looks kinda pillowy and distracting from the central figure. I also quite liked the pink dots you had in your background trees before.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2018 at 6:09am


Heeded your advice and darkened the clouds, also deleted a bit of the movement from the bottom right corner. Not really sure which pink dots you mean exactly because there's a lot of pink on the palette.
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Quote ink Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2018 at 5:13pm

Changed some more things, still absolutely lost on what would be the best course for the sky.





Darkened the sky a bit more, also simplified some of the mist/clouds.



Worked all day on the sky and finally found a solution I sort of like.

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