Criticism
Printed From: Pixel Joint
Category: The Lounge
Forum Name: Resources and Support
Forum Discription: Help your fellow pixel artists out with links to good tutorials, other forums, software, fonts, etc. Bugs and support issues should go here as well.
URL: https://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1822
Printed Date: 09 June 2026 at 10:51am
Topic: Criticism
Posted By: pixelblink
Subject: Criticism
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 1:58pm
| What are your thoughts on proper critisism? When does it go too far? Does anyone want to write up an editorial on this issue? |
Replies:
Posted By: 0xDB
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 2:21pm
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"negative" criticism should be: *to the point *"polite" (though i am aware this is quite a flexible word) *not obscured or encrypted by rhethorical weapons, such as sarcasm or irony *not attacking anyone personally (the art should be the center of focus) *always accompanied by actual suggestions on specifically "what" to improve *thought twice about and refrained from being given at all, if someone is just having a bad day and therefore seems to abuse it to vent their frustration (we have 3D shooters and other games for that purpose) That's all i can think of for a start. I don't claim to be a shiny superhuman who is always polite and I for sure haven't always given constructive comments either, still I think it would be good for the overall atmosphere if we tried to follow some guidelines. Strangely enough those guidelines don't necessarily have to apply to "positive" feedback, because that isn't generally taken "personally" by anyone.  But for "negative" feedback (even if meant constructive) it is just natural for many people to take that very "personal" so there should be extra care taken to see, if you're not accidentially saying something insultive. Especially when giving advice to newbies, as many newbies(i hate the degrading expression "noob" btw) tend to be very sensitive for criticism, despite it often being constructive. So what did i want to say: Let's all at least try to be polite and constructive in our criticism. ------------- http://www.dennisbusch.de/index.php - 0xDB | https://twitter.com/dennisbusch_de - twitter |
Posted By: Dra_chan
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 2:26pm
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Proper critisism is the one that points out, not only the mistakes, but
the good things the piece has as well. If one thinks that the art has
no good things, or it is done by a very new pixel artist, that's when
constructive critisism is needed the most. To critique well is not just saying "that tree looks terrible", people should tell the creator how to improve the work. If someone wants to critique, it means he/she has the patience to help the artist where it's needed. Critisism goes too far when phrases like "that sucks", "you are really bad" or "dats so n00b lolz" are used. The idea is to help people improve their work, not to make them feel worthless. |
Posted By: Monsoon2D
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 3:44pm
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Keep in mind that there are plenty of tutorials available on several websites, including this one. There are forums where WIPs can be posted, including this one. To post incredibly basic pixel art when all of the tools that are needed to improve are right under the submitter's nose is, to me, almost a slap in the face. It would be nice if other people would point the obviously "less-informed" persons in the right direction. I believe that it's fair to say, "this is very sub-par", or "this could be MUCH better", or "were you drunk?" if the submitter of the art had submitted several piss-poor pieces and had not taken part in any forum discussions. Remember, Pixel Joint is community-based, and it's ignorant to post anything on a website without investigating it beforehand. |
Posted By: pixelblink
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 3:46pm
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awesomely put Monsoon. Great ideas so far by everyone. I would honestly love to get a manual together for people who want to make the most of their critiques... both by reading them and by making them. ------------- |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 5:01pm
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Crits are neccesary, they serve as a learning tool. One should bear in mind who the crit is aimed at. For example, when I recently criticized Big Brother (the nerve), I fully explained what I thought in such detail that he both responded and accepted my crit as valid. When I saw a new person's first time piece and felt a crit was needed I did it in the form of question (passively), and if answered/asked for will offer help/assistance/direction. If its someone who hangs out in the forum, is a buddy or I somehow know their sense of humor I will offer my crit with biting sarcasm and vile, kowing there would be no offense taken. ------------- |
Posted By: Bisque
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 5:31pm
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What I have an extreme problem with is that sometimes those who have
been around long enough begin to feel entitled to an attitude of "I
have more experience and therefor I am better." If you come at someone you've never spoken to before whilst looking down your nose, ofcourse they are going to be offended. It doesnt matter WHAT you are saying to them. Your points can be perfectly valid, but won't make -any- impact at all on the person b/c they are too busy being hurt or disgusted by HOW you are saying things. Instead of telling someone something they made is BAD, or NEEDS to be fixed, you should SUGGEST to them that maybe they could do this or that b/c it would make the piece better. ------------- Poor Alice is dead. They cut off her head. But we'll be okay, didn't need her either way. |
Posted By: iSTVAN
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 7:11pm
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I always try to point out positive things about an artwork before I give suggestions on how to improve. Pointing people in the direction of tutorials or the WIP forum may seem tedious, but sometimes its really the best option. If a work is obviously unfinished, and the creator is aware of this, than it should not be in the gallery in the first place. Giving a blank critisism, like 'this could be better' or 'this is subpar, try again,' seems pointless from my perspective. I'd rather say nothing than dismiss a work without any follow up suggestions. So in this case I agree that theres a huge difference between the structure of positve and negative feedback. The only real negative feedback I've had is from people who find my works 'disgusting.' I see well structured critiques, or suggestions as a postive thing, and I value the input from others. On the otherhand, the only real negative feedback I feel that I've given is towards rippers (although one time I did make a pretty useless comment about one of Sedgemonkey's pieces). I wouldn't know how to go about writing an editorial, but it would be neat if someone compiled a combination of all our ideas (because they have all been varied and valid) into some sort of readable material or guideline. PS. PB, your new sig is so dramatically egalitarian, it cracks me up. ------------- Listen to what the flower people say... 
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Posted By: pixelblink
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 1:44am
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iST: thanks... it's meant to be somewhat humourous yet inspiring. ------------- |
Posted By: Riva
Date Posted: 08 April 2006 at 2:57am
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I understand iSTVANs point about "Giving a blank critisism" is pointless.
On the other hand I have quite extensive experience with being both member and admin of some online communities (mostly game-dev oriented) and one of the lessons is "newbie will never listen" For me its simply a rule now. Newbie person is usually defined by: 1 - being a newcomer to given community 2 - being of young age 3 - being unexperienced person in general and also in the topic the community\forum is dedicated to 4 - being new to online community-forum stuff overaly 5 - being male That would be ok, but it brings this effects with it: 1 the person doesnt care about the community rules and doesnt even care to find what they are 2 person doesnt in fact care about the community itself - the people and discussions. His sole intention is to show himself (his work) to public - and get some ego-boosting attention (even the negative one, if he finds that positive is not easy to get). 3 person is very arrogant and self-absorbed. Takes ANY non-positive c. as direct attack agains his person and react that way. By that I dont want to cry here how those stupid newbs are ruining our beloved forums or point how much better then them am I. In fact I dont think I am in some aspects, and I also remeber I was probably the same back then. My point is theres no point wasting time and effort on writing any cc (let alone "quality" one) to this kind of person. It is better to either leave him alone without any response or, if you must, write one of the "blank response" lines like "this is simply not good enough for any discussion" etc. From what I know it only takes time to stop being (acting like) newbie, not education from the others. So my advice is leave him alone and let him(her) grow out of it. Thats my pound to the topic. I hope that it will not offend anybody and also sorry for producing pages of boring text again. ;) |
Posted By: Monkey 'o Doom
Date Posted: 09 April 2006 at 12:06pm
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You put forth a point, but I think it has a flaw. In pixel art, growth by experimentation--an isolated newb's only method of development--is only a good technique to use once you have mastered the basics. I made pixels as a n00b (pre-joining this community) that were downright horrible. I improved a huge amount once I took the time to read some tutorials on the web that showed me my mistakes. With the newbie who knows nothing of pixel art, directing them to tutorials for their next works in a kind fashion would probably work as long as they care enough to read the tutorial and update their skills/techniques. Asking an impatient newb to redo their "hard work" isn't a good idea, though telling them to do something on their next work is less traumatizing for the newb. I say this because although your skills may increase, you can't always salvage some of your weak art. I recently cleaned my 'Pixels' folder, and about 65% of the stuff couldn't be brought up to par without unreasonable effort. ------------- http://pixelmonkey.ensellitis.com"> 
RPG is numberwang. |
Posted By: cosmic4z
Date Posted: 14 May 2006 at 8:56am
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Originally posted by pixelblink What are your thoughts on proper critisism? When does it go too far? Does anyone want to write up an editorial on this issue? I think it's very much a mixed bag. GIVING: There is definately an art to giving critisism (feedback); and a big part of it is the intention of the person giving it, which should be to help the person being critisised to realise some of their own short-comings, and to hilight areas in which they can improve. However, this 'positive intention' on the part of the person giving the feedback, is not enough in itself. You also need to deliver it in a tactful and appropriate way, and at an appropriate time, mostly dependent on the state of mind of the person being critisised. It should never be given in a manner that just boosts the ego of the person giving it. RECIEVING: Good to consider the validity of the feedback, is it correct and appropriate? Is the person just critisising me, just to make themself look good? Or do the genuinely seem like someone who wants to help me? Also good if you can take the feedback in a positive way; that illuminates the areas you need to work on and develop, and thank whoever it is who is critisising you (especially if they're only doing it to boost their own ego). Seriously though, I get things 'wrong' all the time (don't we all?) and I want to improve and develop in all areas of my life, and I really am grateful when I get any kind of feedback. It's all positive if you use it positively. ------------- PRO Game Developer: www.jamiewoodhouse.co.uk Tools For Making Maps: www.gbatools.com |
Posted By: ryumaru
Date Posted: 16 July 2006 at 10:28pm
| a method i sometimes used when giving critiques is the "sandwich" method. you first start with a very positive comment, or series of comments. you then talk about the negative parts of the image and how to improve. then you give another positive comment, about the image. |
Posted By: alkaline
Date Posted: 19 July 2006 at 5:45pm
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Hehe...I do that a lot. Basically I mostly always try to be lenient and polite when giving any critique. Even to the lowest of the low. I find it unnecessary to totally put down and insult their art, but lightly tell them how they can improve...otherwise we'll get the same stuff over and over. Besides, discouragement gives fun art a bad name :( ------------- |
Posted By: pixelblink
Date Posted: 19 July 2006 at 11:16pm
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I think http://pixel-arts.org/pixelopolis/index.php?topic=1601.0;topicseen - this recent thread over at Pixelopolis has relevance here
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Posted By: Necky
Date Posted: 21 August 2006 at 8:55am
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One word sums up etiquette on these forums and that is 'respect'. Respect for the artist, for their work and for their opinions and feelings. My general rule of thumb is, if you wouldn't say it to their face (and lets assume the person you are talking to is 8 feet tall and 4 feet wide and capable of squashing you with their thumb) then don't say it. It is also important not to go throwing accusations around until you know the facts. I've seen it way to many times people harking on about 'this is not pixel work', this is actually very rude and upseting if the piece of work ends up being hand drawn, pixel for pixel. Also having a bit more of an understanding and appriciation for styles of work that you may not personally appriciate wouldn't go a miss. If you really hate something enough, don't say anything, nothing is gained by destroying someone because they don't marry up to your personal tastes. |
Posted By: q_Werty
Date Posted: 07 February 2007 at 3:44am
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I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but i've been a member of several art forums for some time, and something that i am kind of puzzled about is people's interpetation of what many people say here: "You shouldn't just point out the bad things about a piece, but also the good things."
It seems that people interpet this as "It's mean to just say bad things, so you should say something nice as well." What this means to me is that you should point out the good things, then some bad things, and then think about how the artist can apply what he/she is good at on the worse parts of the piece.
Bad: "I don't really like the house. It needs more texturing. Also, the shading on the leaves aren't the same as on the branches on that tree. You should try to keep in mind the global angle of the light in the picture. I like the grass though, it looks really realistic."
Good: "You've done a really good job on making the grass and texturing the tree. The house looks a little more sloppy on the texturing, and i think it would look really good if you used the same technique as on the tree, but made it more 'blocky' and less organic. Also, the shading on the house is pretty good, you should use that as a reference when you shade the tree, to make the piece more uniform."
Catch my drift?
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Posted By: Stacy3601
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 9:38am
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What are your thoughts on proper criticism? When does it go too far? Does anyone want to write up an editorial on this issue? i like this topic and i'm glad it was brought up. I am a newbie when it comes to pixel art and i am new to this website. I have been a member at deviant art for several years and i must admit i had gotten used to the types of comments they give out there. like "wow this is awesome" or sometimes not even words just smilies. and when i got here it was like a slap in the face when i started getting a lot of negitive comments on my work..... i work hard on all my pieces even if you really cant tell... well that is becasue i am still new. but i work just as hard on my art as someone who has been pixeling for years i just havnt mastered the all the tecniques yet. it was especially hard when i got a lot of negative comments on a piece that i had worked really really hard on... i got comments like: The wings could use som dithering. Personally i think it would be
better with more frames before the wings came out. Nice job on the body. that one i did not find offensive because i agree. the picture did need some dithering on the wings...he wings look more behind than attatched, the face is kind of manly,
certain sections could really use cleaning up, and you should maybe
emphasise female a little bit better. now this one did make me mad. i used a refrence for the whole body including the face.... so saying the face is manly is saying the person looks manly... how in the world could you possibly make a face look more feminine when it didnt look like that to begin with? "
emphasise female a little bit better." what is that supposed to mean?and another: I don't really understand why people post things that they know suck but are too lazy to do anything about. Not that this piece is a lost cause, but it needs a whole lot of work. Everything seems very flat, the front leg is pillowshaded yet conveys nothing, the leg in the back has a shape that makes absolutely no sense where the back elbow bends over it. And the wings, at their current state, should've been left out. This looks more like a WIP than a completed piece to me. "but it needs a whole lot of work" i felt like this was an unnecessary comment.... it implies that i did not spend much time on it.... WHICH I DID.... i was already upset at the last post... but this one was just the gas on the fire... was i just being sensitive that day? i admit i am more sensitive than most without my meds.... but still it could have been worded better... |
Posted By: Ensellitis
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 12:26pm
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stacy, you're main problem is you are taking the criticisms way to personally. 80% of comments/crits are from the viewers perspective. its like looking at clouds, you may see a rabbit but i see star. everyone sees something different. if someone says the face looks manly, then perhaps it is. many pairs of eyes can point out flaws. in an artists eyes, or the untrained eye, the piece may look perfect, but in another's it looks speedily done with not much effort. the problem with deviant art is that they really never give good crits, because most of the people leaving you comments aren't pixel artists and don't have the knowledge of the art to point out flaws, or even know what they are for that matter. and like i said in your comments, there will always be those who you can never please, or people who get off only posting negative comments and being assholes. i am going to be completely blunt... if you don't want negative comments, or people heavily criticizing your work, then pixel joint is not the place for you. we, for the most part, are very dedicated and protective of our art mainly because it is so misunderstood. there have been many before you, and will continue to be more in the future, people who open ms paint, sling a few pixels, and think they are then professional pixel artists. i by no means am a pro, i am far from it. i have my moments when i pull it all together... but i have far to go. we all do, even the greats have their flaws they need to work on, and with you being new, you have far to go as well. you are coming into a community that is weary of outsiders who get angry that people are constantly judging their work, when that is how you improve. however, it isnt hard to become part of this community... it takes dedication and willingness to learn and improve. this isnt like deviant art, where everything you submit is automatically approved. imagine the gallery if we let that happen? in conclusion, before i get way off topic and loose my concentration... take every comment with a grain of salt. i have been here nearly 2 years, and i have seen hundreds people come and go... the ONE thing that differentiates them from people who have stuck around is dedication.every single person here get crappy commets on art every now and then. if you dont like the comment, you have 3 ways of dealing with it... 1. get pissed off and yell at them 2. ignore them 3. examine what they said, ask for clarification, ask for help on improving, etc... ------------- There's a pubic hair on my keyboard. What the f**k?? I "mow the lawn" so it's not mine. Gross. |
Posted By: pixelblink
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 1:01pm
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I think that if you are looking to become an artist in any medium (pixels, painting, music, film, etc.), you're going to have to put up with a lot more criticism because you have a job to do. Even on dA, you're going to run into real artists giving out real critique because they want to help prepare you for the real world. Unfortunately, there are a good amount of people who just want to gain popularity and "friends" as if this was another MySpace. I don't get it. I really don't. I mean how is scribbling something for 5 minutes gaining any amount of respect in the art community? Showing that you put time and effort into your work as well as taking your peers words as a respectable and viable resource is a true sign of an artist. We are all our own best and worst critics when it comes down to it and if you don't ever look at your own work and think that there's something you could do better, I think that's a true sign that you shouldn't be an artist. An ego can only grow so much before one realizes they have room to grow. ------------- |
Posted By: Stacy3601
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 1:14pm
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I mean how is scribbling something for 5 minutes gaining any amount of
respect in the art community? i hope you were not directing that at me. i dont do that at all. i spend hours on my work... Showing that you put time and effort into your work as well as taking
your peers words as a respectable and viable resource is a true sign of
an artist. i do agree, but i also think it can be one in a kinder manner... i mean the people could point out the good aspects of the piece...and if there are none.. then the picture should not have been added in the first place.. |
Posted By: Larwick
Date Posted: 15 February 2007 at 4:47pm
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In school... OK. TRUST ME. THIS POST IS GOOD, I READ IT OVER MYSELF. ALTHOUGH YOU SHOULD ONLY READ IT IF YOU'RE NOT TIRED OR OVERLY PUMPED BECAUSE IT IS KINDA LONG AND REPETITIVE. *ahem*
In school we used to always hate the strict teachers, and like the easy ones because they just let you mess around. Now, i hate the ones who let us mess around, and i respect the ones who were actually trying to help us learn, no matter how they did it.
I mention that because in the end, all we want here is to learn. Gaining friends along the way is a bonus. If you want to make arguments, it's obvious. If you're just unaware of how you're effecting people, then all you need is someone to say in a polite manner that you actually are doing what you're doing, and you should try to change.
Obviously everyone has their own way of doing things, and their own personas. Usually the ones we call 'n00bs' are just people who are too young to realise they're being immature. Those people we call horrible have just been brought up in a way that clashes with your own way of doing things, i don't want to say that they're brought up in a bad way really.. but yanow. All we need to do is to be polite.
If someone just gives you a load of crits in a very blunt manner, are they necissarily being mean or harsh? No. They're just not mentioning anything about your piece that is actually good. There will be those who do mention the good sides, so don't worry, take from them what helps you, and move on. As everyone should know, no crits are meant to be personal.
The person who critisised your piece probably has better things to be doing. To be honest, it should be seen as a privilege that they're taking their time to help you, THEY MAY NOT BE IN THE MOOD OR HAVE THE TIME TO POINT OUT EVERY GOOD THING ABOUT A PIECE JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER. If they also critisise your way of typing or your attitude it's kinda the same thing.
That's why i like it when people thank those who crit'd their piece, and i dislike it when they seem to just ignore those who don't say anything nice, or who start nitpicking someone's way of critisising. PMs should be used when you need to talk to someone about their behaviour when you really don't want to effect the topic of the thread.
If someone is purposefully being a twat, just tell a moderator, or politely let them know. Don't start whining, as you'll be purposefully creating an argument in your (or someone elses) thread.
Bleh, basically everyone should have common sense. That's what i use. If i've been hipocritical or generally dumb anywhere there, i blame it being early AM.  -------------  http://larw-ck.deviantart.com">
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Posted By: Riva
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 12:49am
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@ Stacy:
Disclaimer: I indeed am one of those "stupid" blokes who bitch at newbie stickman-art and offten give harsh criticism. If you cant stand the kind of person, beter dont read on. Body: You seem to me really naive. When I read your posts 1st time, I seriously thought you must be early teen, though your profile (if its right) says otherwise.
The thing is , as guys already wrote, your whole life you are being criticised. Judged for various things by various people and mostly the hard way. Also if you ever attended any art school (or any school in general), you know your work is constantly under hard critism there. And most of the time you can only guess if thats because some of your teachers are just plain asses or really trying to teach you something.
My point - the thing I came up to after a long time as artist and also as member of various web forums etc. - is there is some kind of darvinism in process of learning things\doing things. Either you are strong enough (dedicated enough, maybe apathetic enough) to work hard and stand the hard crit afterward, the go on again, or you are NOT.
If you are, you wount quit and maybe you actually get used to cc and find way to get the positive part from it (the "constructive", the "advice" part). You can even bitch back at your critics, if that make you feel better for the moment and five you "strenght to go on", though it may also make you look stupid and noob.
If you are not strong enough, you will just cry how the whole world is bad at you (which you are doing now imho), then run away and probably never become anything more then noob in any form of doing. All from me. |
Posted By: Zoggles
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 7:10pm
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I think criticism needs to be given at a level suitable for the artist in question. If they are obviously a beginner (but are showing some signs of true intent as opposed to a very careless thirty second doodle) then criticism should be based on things they will be able to comprehend. It should also be limited and not too overwhelming.
I use the same approach here in China when people ask me to help with their English. I could rip apart almost every sentence pointing out an error in pronounciation, mis-use or missing articles for almost every word, but then they are just too overwhelmed by it and lose all hope. Correcting one word at a time, means they feel like they can manage it and they can understand it and slowly improve. So far this has been the best approach I've found. Likewise the same is true in reverse. When someone gives me a completely blank look and then starts babbling on pointing out errors with every word of my attempted chinese sentence, it becomes too much for me to remember and comprehend and I similarly lose hope as to every being able to master this nightmarish language.
One step at a time is what I would say is about the best way. If a beginner, don't talk about sel-out until they have become familiar with clean outlining and so on. One must learn to walk before trying to run.
On the other side of things, I will agree with most comments. Crits should never be personal (almost a contradiction to my first point in that you are pitching your crit on a suitable level of the artist - therefore personal, but not because of who they are.) Stupid insults and rhetorical questions such as 'my god, did you never study anatomy at college?' never actually help, they just turn things hostile.
My last comment is that above all else I have always found that examples are the best way to learn / see / understand techniques. Much more so than an edit. An edit gives the artist the (or a partial) solution, instead of showing them how and letting them finish it themselves. Edits are most useful for correcting shapes/anatomy/palette choices/animation timings. -z-
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Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 7:27pm
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So well put, I couldn't agree more. So cool to have you join Pixeljoint, welcome. ------------- |
Posted By: pixelli
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 10:18am
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When they tell you whats wrong with it, they should tell you what to fix.. otherwise its an insult. ANDD the automated messages should be polite, not directly call your pixels junkk >:L |
Posted By: Larwick
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 1:12pm
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Originally posted by pixelli When they tell you whats wrong with it, they should tell you what to fix.. otherwise its an insult. ANDD the automated messages should be polite, not directly call your pixels junkk >:L You should have the ability to realise what needs fixing when someone tells you what is wrong with a piece. Seriously, we can't do everything for you. How on earth is it an insult not to tell you exactly what to do? If anything i would expect telling someone exactly what they had to do would be patronising. You should try not to take offense to practically everything you come across. Do not take offense to what i've said in this post. I'm only trying to help afterall. ------------- http://larw-ck.deviantart.com">
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Posted By: The B.O.B.
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 6:05pm
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Yes, criticism is a good thing, as it gets through the bullshart of asspats, and being nice, and gets straight to the point as what may need fixing. I've never had a problem with ANY type of criticism, as it's always something refreshing to hear through another person's point of view. However, things like " Dude, this sucks, you're gay! hah lol" are not only ridiculous, but NOT acceptable. Stuff like that is the only thing I think is not allowable with criticism. Everything else, that's at least 2-3 sentences of criticism, is fair game to me, even if they seem harsh. It's not our fault that some people are susceptible to the truth, or them not being able to handle it regarding their pieces. No one's perfect, open your mind and ears, and things will go MUCH more smoother for you is the most simple way I can put it. |
Posted By: Shrub
Date Posted: 22 January 2008 at 12:14pm
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I think that you should try and say something good about the art if you say something bad. And try and be specific too. For example: Bad: It really needs a load of work, it's not too great at all. Bad job. Good: I would suggest that in your future work you try and get a bit more detail on the armour, maybe a little coat of arms or something, because the lack of detail ruins it a little bit. But I really like the dithering on it though, plus it's nice and colourful. Good luck on your future projects. Why was the top one bad? Well, it wasn't specific - saying that something needs a lot of work isn't helpful at all. People need to know what they can improve on, not just that it needs improving. And the top one merely said something bad about it, leaving the artist feeling rejected and unhappy. On the other hand, the bottom one said something good about the work after, softening the blow. ------------- |
Posted By: Larwick
Date Posted: 22 January 2008 at 12:35pm
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That's true Shrub, the top example is bad because it is plainly critisism, not constructive critisism. Being polite and adding something like 'good luck in your future projects' at the end of a post should be done, as it doesn't take much time and shows that you care. However i sometimes find it very hard to find anything i actually like about certain pieces, and so that's as far as i can go. ------------- http://larw-ck.deviantart.com">
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Posted By: randomblink
Date Posted: 04 February 2008 at 12:26pm
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Something to think about in those moments Larwick is... You might not like the work in question? But surely you can appreciate the excitement that comes with putting your work in front of your peers for review? So just say something like: "Good job on posting your work up for review." "It's great to see people still working on ideas like this one." etc. You don't have to touch the artwork, maybe it's the direction the artist is trying to go. Is it a spaceship? A Wee? Or a completely new direction? Just reassuring the poster that we are always looking for people who want to grow is enough sometimes... at least it was for me. ------------- www.randomblink.com I am me... no! Really! |
Posted By: Namre
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 1:19pm
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I think that in order for us to resolve this issue, certain attitudes from both parties must be observed.
On the part of the artist: * Try to remember that you have shared your artwork for all the world to see, you are bound to get criticisms about your work. * Try to get used to getting criticisms. In the world of art, criticisms are a way for you to learn and evolve] * If ever you encounter comments that are just there to piss you off, I suggest to just ignore them. If you get pissed off and hunt them down, then you have completed their purpose of leaving that comment * Remember, you receive criticisms so that you can be to able learn On the part of the Commenter/Critic * Always think of what you are about to say before pressing the "Post it" button. * Some questions you may want to ask yourself before posting are: "Is there a room for misinterpretation in my comment?" "Does my criticisms sound a little too harsh?" etc. * If the artist is still a newbie, and you could see that they've put some time into their work, then I suggest taking extra care with your criticisms. Too much criticisms for newbies may cause them to give up early. * Remember, you give out criticisms so that they can be able to learn I know it might be a little too much effort to some, but if we really want order in this kind of issue, I guess both parties must be educated first. What do you guys think? Cheers! And BTW, nice community! |
Posted By: Riva
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 3:10pm
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<btw>This is VERY old topic :)</btw>
A lot have been sayd here, but when I look at it from wider perspective, the whole tread, with all its nice advices, tutorials and opinions seems totaly worthless to me. Maybe most of the active members of this forum really are almost angel-like wise and kind creatures. But if they are not - I would guess so - then I can't imagine even 1% of them being able to follow those rules, and meditate upon and tweak theyr posts, when giving a CC on daily basis. :) I think you are all great philosophers, but its reality out there ;) |
Posted By: adriprints
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 6:33am
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This is my first forum post on Pixel Joint. I am a member of quite a few online communities some of which have forums filled with criticism and postings that are beyond rude. A rule of thumb for folks offering criticism is that I wouldn't post anything you wouldn't say to someone in their face and expect being slapped back. That being said, I'm also a member of some online communities where people are awesome to each other and offer only constructive criticism when criticizing and are genuinely around the forums to help. It seems like there is a LOT of ego to get past on PixelJoint to actually get your work constructively criticized, and not just plain annoying pixel-elitist poking and provoking (which causes people to become alienated from the site, not improve their work). @Riva - I'm glad you revived the thread by way of finding it completely worthless, and commenting about it. I find that humorous. |
Posted By: Amelyth
Date Posted: 11 May 2009 at 8:02am
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Now I could go on about this and state what should and shouldn't be but I think that is covered. I have seen comments on this forum already today which aren't really comments that should have been made in the way they were.. There ARE some people who can no be helped but there should also be a level of awareness on both parts when it comes to criticism. One thing that is most important is that you should give constructive criticism if you say you don't like it, say why, if you can offer an idea, direction or link to what could solve it. This is an open Forum where the only restriction for posting is to sign up for the forum by registering. You will get a lot of people with less talent signing up and who are new. Unfortunately for those of you seasoned pixelers and forum users the internet doesn't require some sort of license so you will get people who don't read well or miss posts that tell you where something is. And yes some of those are just completely hopeless. I have also been on forums where there were people so rude that there was no reason behind thier posts other than to be rude. I would hope the moderators here have the time and respect for this community to get rid of those ones or perhaps close off the forum signups without first checking out the people signing up and requiring some sort of screening process :) ------------- Yes, I play wow. |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 11 May 2009 at 8:46am
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Originally posted by Amelyth I would hope the moderators here have the time and respect for this community to get rid of those ones or perhaps close off the forum signups without first checking out the people signing up and requiring some sort of screening process :) Bad idea, very, very bad, bad, idea. 'Screening process'? I can already hear people screaming "Pixel Nazis" (more so than they usually already do), ergo bad idea.  -------------  "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso 
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Posted By: Amelyth
Date Posted: 11 May 2009 at 4:23pm
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Yeah those never work raven :P
------------- Yes, I play wow. |
Posted By: Tipleloop
Date Posted: 21 June 2009 at 1:18am
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Originally posted by Riva Newbie person is usually defined by: 1 - being a newcomer to given community 2 - being of young age 3 - being unexperienced person in general and also in the topic the community\forum is dedicated to 4 - being new to online community-forum stuff overaly 5 - being male  so I'm not consider as newbie? coz not one of them fits me...but I'm a newbie when it comes to pixel. @Zoggles: Im agreed with u ^^ oh, I like criticism, it help me alot ^^ when I got criticism it remind me that I still can go further, better then being stuck in one lvl and got a lot of praise.. ^^ maybe for me Pixel is like a game.. when u got criticism, is like u got Exp, the more criticism u got the more Exp u got too ^^, and praise is more like Heal for me ^^ it heal u from broken heart coz the criticism has damage ur HP alot... lol |
Posted By: Hatch
Date Posted: 23 June 2009 at 10:25am
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I used to be hesitant to give critique, especially to artists who I considered more advanced than me (ie, all artists), because, after all, what the f**k do I know? You'll notice I'm not so shy anymore. I realized it really doesn't matter. I realized I should just speak plainly and honestly about what I think would improve this or that piece, and others could voice their own opinions, and the artist on the receiving end would sift through all of the input and pick out the things he agreed with. Maybe he'd agree with some of my input, maybe not, but I could rest easy knowing I gave the best advice I was able to give. There's a lot to learn from giving critique. I don't think newcomers should be shy about giving advice to anyone, and they shouldn't feel they need to put up defenses like "I could never make something this good, but..." or "I know you're like a million times better than me, but..." Just state your opinion honestly and dispense with the apologies. Don't be hurt if other posters contradict you--it's sort of critique-critique, and very helpful. Don't be hurt if the artist rejects your ideas, passively or actively--analyze why he did and make the decision to learn from the experience rather than just feeling hurt or defensive. Did your suggestions not jibe with the style he was going for? Were you incorrect on a technical level? Did you offend him? Were you too vague? Take responsibility; don't blame the artist. Analysis of failure is one of the most valuable tools for improving in any field, and it's doubly effective when you apply it to your own critique, because it also helps you get better at what you're critiquing. ------------- |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 8:16pm
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Originally posted by Hatch I used to be hesitant to give critique, especially to artists who I considered more advanced than me (ie, all artists), because, after all, what the f**k do I know? You'll notice I'm not so shy anymore. I realized it really doesn't matter. I realized I should just speak plainly and honestly about what I think would improve this or that piece, and others could voice their own opinions, and the artist on the receiving end would sift through all of the input and pick out the things he agreed with. Maybe he'd agree with some of my input, maybe not, but I could rest easy knowing I gave the best advice I was able to give. There's a lot to learn from giving critique. I don't think newcomers should be shy about giving advice to anyone, and they shouldn't feel they need to put up defenses like "I could never make something this good, but..." or "I know you're like a million times better than me, but..." Just state your opinion honestly and dispense with the apologies. Don't be hurt if other posters contradict you--it's sort of critique-critique, and very helpful. Don't be hurt if the artist rejects your ideas, passively or actively--analyze why he did and make the decision to learn from the experience rather than just feeling hurt or defensive. Did your suggestions not jibe with the style he was going for? Were you incorrect on a technical level? Did you offend him? Were you too vague? Take responsibility; don't blame the artist. Analysis of failure is one of the most valuable tools for improving in any field, and it's doubly effective when you apply it to your own critique, because it also helps you get better at what you're critiquing. Well said  ------------- |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 6:29am
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Originally posted by Hatch I used to be hesitant to give critique, especially to artists who I considered more advanced than me (ie, all artists), because, after all, what the f**k do I know? This is pretty much why I stopped posting in every single topic that comes into the WIP forum (I still check them all, but I just keep my mouth shut). I figured "I haven't really done anything myself lately, I'm in no position to be telling others what to do." ------------- "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso
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Posted By: Hatch
Date Posted: 28 June 2009 at 6:42pm
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What the... you used my post to justify the very behavior it was trying to discourage. read the rest of it for pete's sake. ------------- |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 28 June 2009 at 7:00pm
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I did read the whole thing. I was merely pointing out the first sentence as it related to me. >_<
------------- "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso
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Posted By: Celri
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 8:01am
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I have been an art teacher for 12 years teaching kids between the ages of 10 and 17! I have been an anrt student all my life! There are two things that I have picked up along the way as both teacher and artist and they are:
1) Negative, destructive and pointless criticism without any backing breaks down confidence and the artis's self image, becuase our work is a part of us from the smallest pixel to the largest oil canvass.
2) Constructive criticism starts with what can be improved, with guidelines and facts to back it up; has no emotion connected to it and most importantly it finishes off by pointing out what does work to the artist so that htey will have the confidence to improve on their efforts !
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Posted By: Clovvach
Date Posted: 05 November 2009 at 6:00pm
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When I first posted my work on the internet (it wasn't just pixel art) I posted it on a site called Newgrounds, witch is a mixed bag when it comes to criticism. There were some people who just responded with crap like "omg this sukz bals!!!", witch is the worst response you can get, because COME ON, is that really going to do anything? Why waste your time like that? Then there was one guy who was really helpful, unlike all the other responses, he told me what needed help, and why. I felt kind of sad, because people who do that always seemed better than I did, but I didn't give up.
That is what you are aiming for right there. It's like a game. You're basically trying to keep the artist from just quitting, witch is hard to do at first. The most successful way of doing this is to tell what you liked about it and encouragement in any other way. Everything has some good in it. Even the best artist's first work is always crap, but constructive criticism is how we all get better. Now here's an example of when it goes too far. Someone once said my art was "painful", and the correct definition for that is "causing physical pain" or "causing distress or trouble". Art should do neither of those, especially when I spent a long time on it. That's my thought on constructive criticism. |
Posted By: Clovvach
Date Posted: 05 November 2009 at 6:10pm
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Originally posted by Riva
I understand iSTVANs point about "Giving a blank critisism" is pointless. On the other hand I have quite extensive experience with being both member and admin of some online communities (mostly game-dev oriented) and one of the lessons is "newbie will never listen" For me its simply a rule now. Newbie person is usually defined by: 1 - being a newcomer to given community 2 - being of young age 3 - being unexperienced person in general and also in the topic the community\forum is dedicated to 4 - being new to online community-forum stuff overaly 5 - being male That would be ok, but it brings this effects with it: 1 the person doesnt care about the community rules and doesnt even care to find what they are 2 person doesnt in fact care about the community itself - the people and discussions. His sole intention is to show himself (his work) to public - and get some ego-boosting attention (even the negative one, if he finds that positive is not easy to get). 3 person is very arrogant and self-absorbed. Takes ANY non-positive c. as direct attack agains his person and react that way. By that I dont want to cry here how those stupid newbs are ruining our beloved forums or point how much better then them am I. In fact I dont think I am in some aspects, and I also remeber I was probably the same back then. My point is theres no point wasting time and effort on writing any cc (let alone "quality" one) to this kind of person. It is better to either leave him alone without any response or, if you must, write one of the "blank response" lines like "this is simply not good enough for any discussion" etc. From what I know it only takes time to stop being (acting like) newbie, not education from the others. So my advice is leave him alone and let him(her) grow out of it. Thats my pound to the topic. I hope that it will not offend anybody and also sorry for producing pages of boring text again. ;) Am I the only one who admits to being a newbie?
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Posted By: Riva
Date Posted: 06 November 2009 at 3:16am
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Didn't I admit I was, and partialy still am, several times through my old post ? ;)
PS I wonder that this topic still does exist :) |
Posted By: ellie-is
Date Posted: 06 November 2009 at 12:01pm
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Originally posted by Riva
Didn't I admit I was, and partialy still am, several times through my old post ? ;) PS I wonder that this topic still does exist :) Hey Riva, I remember some crit that you did in a couple of my pieces about half an year ago. I dont remember the exact words (and cant find them either, I think I deleted those pieces), but from what I remember you pretty much told me it sucked, and where it sucked. I gotta thank you for that. 6 months might not be such a long time but I have changed a lot during this time. I used to think my works were good (when they were far from that), and I kinda needed a slap in the face, someone who is actually good at it to tell me that I wasn't. What I learned: While it might not feel so good at first, harsh criticism is what makes you improve. |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 06 November 2009 at 2:33pm
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Originally posted by lucas_irineu harsh criticism is what makes you improve. Or crushes you horribly. XD There needs to be a balance between tough enough to make you want to improve and gentle enough to support you through it. Too harsh, and people wave the white flag. Too gentle, and people get ego issues. It has to be just right. It's like what's her name and the three bears. XD ------------- "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso
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Posted By: Clovvach
Date Posted: 06 November 2009 at 3:44pm
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Originally posted by greenraven
Originally posted by lucas_irineu Or crushes you horribly. XDThere needs to be a balance between tough enough to make you want to improve and gentle enough to support you through it.Too harsh, and people wave the white flag. Too gentle, and people get ego issues. It has to be just right. It's like what's her name and the three bears. XDharsh criticism is what makes you improve. I totally agree. There is a difference between being helpful and being nice, so instead of rating a review on a scale between 1-10, it's like rating it on two separate scales. |
Posted By: Hapiel
Date Posted: 09 November 2009 at 3:40pm
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Originally posted by Riva I really like the idea. (but he shouldn't have his legs in the water maybe ? :) Originally posted by lucas_irineu Yeah, I did this very quickly, months ago, just to enter the challenge. Wasnt paying much attention to details back then. Thats not really harsh right? ;) ------------- |
Posted By: CrapFactory
Date Posted: 13 November 2009 at 3:44pm
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Negative criticism is so much more helpful. Sure it can go too far sometimes. However I enjoy good negative criticism much more than "great job! I love it!" when I'm working on a WIP. Seriously, I kind of hate it when I post in a forum a WIP and all I get are "that's great!" and "awesome!" rather than stuff that would help me advance. |
Posted By: ellie-is
Date Posted: 14 November 2009 at 9:26am
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Originally posted by Lollige
Originally posted by Riva
I really like the idea. (but he shouldn't have his legs in the water maybe ? :) Originally posted by lucas_irineu Thats not really harsh right?;)Yeah, I did this very quickly, months ago, just to enter the challenge. Wasnt paying much attention to details back then. Lol not at all. But thats not the one I'm talking about :P I think it was a crappy face I did a while ago, that I deleted. |
Posted By: hixdei-love
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 2:09am
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if thats the case, then this comment is out of line abit "ok, just for your info i did NOT recolour the orignal or trace Oh, really? Then this is an http://sdb.drshnaps.com/sheets/Nintendo/Misc/Pokemon/Ranger2/new/Eevee_Vaporeon_Jolteon_Flareon_Espeon_Umbreon_Leafeon_Glaceon.png - amazing coincidence :
mainly cause, one sarcasm, two i atualy DID draw my picture i used the image as a refrence and copyed pixel by pixel and three their said 'proof' showing my inage and the orignal, the colours of the orignal fur were much darker and mine was much lighter i know this cause i used a defolt gray in my painting program and worked from that while i was drawing |
Posted By: ellie-is
Date Posted: 20 November 2009 at 8:28am
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First, copying pixel by pixel is the same thing as tracing.
Two, even if the colors are different, recoloring existing sprites is against the rules just like tracing. |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 06 December 2009 at 10:05am
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I just realized something interesting... Most artists (and not just artists, but any profession or hobby) ask for criticism and they all want people to point out what they did wrong. Well, there's nothing wrong with knowing your flaws, but why not ask for what you did right? It's nice to know your strengths too. I just found this kinda interesting. I think proper criticism should also include positive as well as negative. Too many people focus too much on the negative when critiquing. ------------- "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso
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Posted By: pipe
Date Posted: 07 December 2009 at 2:07pm
| I think the artist is aware of what he is doing right so he wants to focus on the things he is doing wrong.He will get many positive comments praising his work later he finishes it(if it is good enough of course).I expect only critisism when I post my work in the Wip forum and that how things should be. |
Posted By: Evilagram
Date Posted: 10 December 2009 at 7:01am
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At the lower levels of art, doing something right is more an absence of doing something wrong. I'd say that something done right is when you invent something that "makes" a piece. For the most part, criticism should be directed at mistakes, and suggestions for study. I don't believe in balancing harsh criticism with nice comments, a person should be able to take bad news and not shoot the messenger. |