PJ Game
Printed From: Pixel Joint
Category: Pixel Art
Forum Name: Collaborations/Challenges
Forum Discription: Submit pixel art project ideas/templates or contribute to an existing pixel art collaboration.
URL: https://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5715
Printed Date: 11 September 2025 at 8:25pm
Topic: PJ Game
Posted By: Boder
Subject: PJ Game
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 12:39am
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!  What happened to the PJ Game? |
Replies:
Posted By: BlackDragon
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 9:57am
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Wrong forum section. And no clue.
------------- "A little pain never hurt anyone." - Blueberry_Pie |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:18am
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The PJ game has been set away for now. Too many directions without a director. Too many ideas, none of which were being acted upon... ...a total shame. Perhaps 2008 have be productive for this project and if so we will bring the section back to the forum. ------------- |
Posted By: Elwin
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:27am
| What is the PJ game? Can be my question is stupid, but I have never heard of it ^^ |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:32am
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We have a huge section of a platform game we were all putting together with several differen worlds, underwater, ice, jungle etc. The game features the PJ nerd as the main character. Many sprites and ideas were done and several were handling the coding while others did sprites others tiles, etc. The lack of focus and especially a director just made eveyything run into dead-ends. As I said, a total shame : / ------------- |
Posted By: Elwin
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 11:00am
| Yeah, sounds like it would've been great... ^^ |
Posted By: AdrianJensen
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 9:07pm
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Originally posted by jalonso Do the posts still exist somewhere?The PJ game has been set away for now. Too many directions without a director. Too many ideas, none of which were being acted upon... ...a total shame. Perhaps 2008 have be productive for this project and if so we will bring the section back to the forum. It would be awesome if someone took charge and started it up again, I was having a ball. ------------- My gallery lives here: http://www.pixeljoint.com/p/8355.htm?pg=1&sec=icons |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 9:36pm
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How was this game going to be made in the first place? I mean, what program/language(programing)/etc...? Just curious. -------------  "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso 
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Posted By: surt
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 9:45pm
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Only info I could find: http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25 - http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25 http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1513 - http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1513 This really should be done. The primary problem with most free/indie games seems to be a lack of quality graphical content which certainly shouldn't be a problem in this case. Needs: Side scrolling platformer parts. Vertical scrolling shmup parts. Iso adventure/puzzle parts. Pixel art based minigames. ------------- 
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Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 7:31am
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No problem in quality only in keeping things focused and on pace. It should be the PJ 2008 resolution to get it set. My suggestion for staring is to create all (90%) of the graphic files, sprites, tiles, items, GUI, etc. THEN talk about the coding and programming. The coder/programmer(s) will then be able to freely work and get into it. ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 12:39am
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Here is all the art I collected. If anyone has any more that I missed or that came later, please post it in this thread. http://www.divshare.com/download/3494777-a53 - DivShare File - PJART.zip Jalonso (and others) what would be the best world to start on - Ice, Ocean, or Painforest? Because everyone should focus on getting one location working first, for like a demo. |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:26am
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So much motivation.. but so little work has been done.. why I ask you.. why!?! /drama Err... yes I like this idea, well I like any idea that involves pixelart and gameplay. But isn't it a good idea to choose a director then? Democratically? My vote goes to the big bug Jal! *grin* ------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: Hapiel
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 5:39am
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Those sprites are really realy really awesome!
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Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:03pm
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We had those all going. Thats not the problem at all. Its making the pixelart first THEN getting the programmers and technicians involved. they will then just need revisions and modifications to the art itself and the project moves. trust me here. Just start making sprites y'all. High quality, PJ top-notch stuff. Not the crap B.O.B, frankie and cure put together. ------------- |
Posted By: Reo
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:05pm
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Will we still use the old sprites like krysis penguin,larwicks bombfish etc?or will all art be new?Or did I miss something? And were did all the old pj game topics go? or did I miss something again?  |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:21pm
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The old sprites are awesome. We are just discussing bringing the project back live, but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused but only if driven and focused ------------- |
Posted By: Larwick
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:43pm
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I'll try and redo my old sprites sometime. I would say soon but i can't promise it. -------------  http://larw-ck.deviantart.com">
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Posted By: Lawrence
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 1:52pm
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Originally posted by jalonso Its making the pixelart first Shouldn't function determine form? I don't think it's such a good idea to let sprites' designs determine their function (and therefore the overall game-play). I know this is a pixel-art site, but making the pixel art before detailed ideas are thought through would probably leave a game feeling boring and generic. ------------- |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 2:12pm
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: ( ------------- |
Posted By: surt
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 2:19pm
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PJ Game weekly challenge(s).
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Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 5:30pm
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Throwing in my 2¢ You need to first have a very basic, but feasible idea as to how the graphics will be from the programming side. Then the art side can start working, then maybe some things have to change, etc. But it is a very good idea to have placeholder art that can just be overwritten with the real stuff. It's just probably not nearly as fun as pulling ideas out of a bag, but it's a lot more realistic for a project. |
Posted By: Gratheo
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 8:31pm
| This would be very cool. I agree that we should decide how it'll work before we start the graphicizing, though. |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 12:22am
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I agree, else it will be something like building a redbrick house with only yellow bricks. In my opinion it doesn't have to be a detailed description about how everything should be, just a few hard guidelines like for example the levels: We should all agree about what kind of themes the levels should have (thus also the enemies, items, etc. in that level) Example levels: - Jungle - Ice - Fire - Dark - Kiddie - etc. If that's clear we can start making art for those levels, put teams of like 10 peeps on one level so the art remains te same in that piece (it's not that bad if the style of the levels differ, in my opinion). That way we create small lumps of art that can be combined together and will grow on it's own. You need to have some discipline there tho, let's say each level needs a tile-set, 10 enemies (which can grow later on), 15 items, etc. That way we have something to start with, instead of the popular ice level has 30 enemies and the not so popular jungle level has only 2 (because we all want to sprite the ice level don't we?  )In short, there has to be a plan.. After that's been said, Im gonna go grab myself a cup of hot cocoa and mind my own business again.  ------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:40pm
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The three worlds are: 1) Iceworld 2) Waterworld 3) Painforest (a spooky, deadly rainforest) The tile size is 32x32. The character stands around 45x60 pixels currently. I started a project on google code. http://code.google.com/p/pjgame/ - http://code.google.com/p/pjgame/ People should start learning how to use Subversion, a revision tool for software development. We need to use the forum for polls and debate. The wiki can stay current with information, but there should be no wiki battles - keep it on the forum. Save as PNG if you can. |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:53pm
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Boder is correct those are the 3 active levels (others are pending dev) So I ran down to the basement and dug out a teaser for those who never saw this: The story so far.... We find our hero, PJ, sitting at his computer designing new pixels.
Intent on finishing his new masterpiece, he barely notices the power
surge and sparks that come from his hard drive. PJ shakes his head. "This is PixPax, Land of the Pix. Do you think you can manage to stand up?"He struggles a bit to get up. Loses his balance for a moment then regains his composure. A sonic boom stops their conversation short. "Oh no! He's come! Dr. Automation is here!" Simone rushes to the window. PJ joins her to see what is going on. Outside they see a number of ships in the sky from which robots and other creatures drop. They rampage the village and find their prey, Sedgemonkey. They shoot him with a stun gun and drag his body to underneath the main ship. A tractor beam shoots down and they beam up their prisoner. All the ships speed off somewhere. "They took Sedgemonkey! Nooooo! Not again!" Simone cries. PJ looks confused. "Don't you have any idea what is going on here?" The blank expression on PJ's face tells her no. "You just wanna get home don't you? Well let me tell you the horrors that have been going on around here..." Simone sits down at the kitchen table and begins her story. "It began a few months ago. The scientist, Dr. Automation went completely mad. He believed the world needed to be purged of all Pix and built his AntiAliasing Machine. This machine would destroy all the power of the Pix by giving him their strength and skills. He began kidnapping random Pix, leaving them lifeless, and gaining their power. Then he began kidnapping the world's greatest Pix and brainwashing them into helping him with his evil plan. With the Brainwashed Pix on his side, the takeover gained more momentum. Sedgemonkey was the last of the Great Pix and now he has everything he needs to rid the world of all life. Sedgemonkey could get you home. His knowledge and wisdom of the surrounding dimensions reach far beyond that of any other. If it weren't for the fact that he was just taken he could've done this for you. It looks like the only way for you to get back is to find where Dr. Automation has taken Sedgemonkey and the others. It is a long journey filled with many dangers but you look like you could handle it." ........ ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 6:08pm
| Story is on the wiki now. |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 6:19pm
so you all know too this is the quality standard for PA:  
 
 FYI: This the the minimum quality PA for PJ game to be re-opened and really worked on. Collabs are fine, whatever, just work to achieve the goal. ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 8:32pm
| jalonso, feel free to send me a message (like if you want to be on the google code project) |
Posted By: AdrianJensen
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 11:03pm
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Ahh sweet, one of my sprites is actually up there. I like how each level had 2 themes. Ice/military. Water/gangster. Yakno. ------------- My gallery lives here: http://www.pixeljoint.com/p/8355.htm?pg=1&sec=icons |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:25am
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Just a little question to think about: Is it possible to release the game with 3 levels at first and when the development gets further more levels will be added? Or something like that, that means the project will never die (and might even give a 2.0 version and further) ------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: kwigbo
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 7:55am
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Hello all, I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. I have been actively developing tools for this game. I never acctually stopped working on it. Below are a few links to the work in progress.
http://www.kwigbo.com/upload/test/ProjectPFlip.html - Scrolling engine Map size limit 3 million tiles distibuted among layers example is a random map 1000X1000 tiles with 3 layers Use arrow keys to scroll. (Map editor is in progress) http://www.kwigbo.com/games/SpriteViewer/SpriteTest.html - Sprite Viewer Tool for checking if sprite sheets are correctly formatted to fit in the game. Right now It has a small test sprite in it but you can go file import and give it the url of any sheet to load another sprite. Hope this will give some motivation for more art. If anyone is interested I can post the criteria for the sprite sheets just let me know. ------------- http://www.kwigbo.com"> 
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Posted By: spartan_117
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 7:59am
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maybe add a spartan boss????????
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Posted By: spartan_117
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:11am
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another thing came in mind. lets make 4 worlds, iso world, c64 world, 1 bit world and full color world. Each world has its own gameplay and a coule of levels each wit a PJ member as a boss.
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Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:34am
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Keep it simple this is exactly how things got out of hand. I just know y'all don't want me as art director on this, mkay. You know how I'm friendly and inexhaustible when helping others? well... as an art director I am a ruthless, hardcore, stoic dick-tator... ...ask any of my co-workwers ../pixelart/28753.htm"> 
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Posted By: spartan_117
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:58am
yes your dick-tatorship.  ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 11:25am
member_profile.asp?PF=8693&FID=1 - AdrianJensen , yeah I like that too!  member_profile.asp?PF=8816&FID=1 - Club Beuker , it would probably be three worlds with about 3-5 levels in each one. But yeah, it would always be possible to add more later, however that later won't come without focusing on the getting the first world running. member_profile.asp?PF=3055&FID=1 - kwigbo , good work on those tools. The sprite editor is interesting. My concern is that the flash tools aren't going to mesh with the C++ game. I was wondering if you would like to work on tools in Java/C#/C++ or you could continue with the flash version? member_profile.asp?PF=10839&FID=1 - spartan_117 , those are all great, creative ideas for a game. But they are the type of ideas suited for the beginning of a project, not the phase we are in now. Any developer could tell you that focus is a major problem to completing a project. It won't work for individual members to try to take creative control, because everyone will have different ideas. But luckily one of your ideas is already planned - that the bosses are PJ members. The easiest way to contribute artistically at this point is to *rough out sketches* of possible decorating tiles (spice up the level by adding variety, but also can be used as passive objects), objects in the levels (trees, rockes, vines, etc.), passive animals, baddies, or boss ideas (but use the bosses already decided on). Next, is to actually create new tiles in the theme. The danger is if the tileset changes. Objects can also be created, trying to keep the style and palette consistent. Working on baddies is fun. but a lot of thought has to go into how it will behave before it is animated. Most of the work is on animation here. Bosses are probably the most fun, right?  But probably should be our lowest priority right now.On the code side, to contribute we are working on the tools and the engine properties of the game. Also we could work on compiling for different compilers, IDE's, build scripts, etc. Check out the wiki, I put a lot up there. I'll try to put up a list of art needed from the programming side, that is mostly guaranteed inclusion i the game if it is good enough. I've helped with a similar community-like project and I'll tell you the problems on the art side from that project. 1) inconsistent style 2) people do there own thing and their art gets ignored 3) people's art gets surpassed by someone else's version, which is frustrating for them 3.5) people working on the same thing at the same time 3.7) someone takes forever working on something, and others don't work on it because they are trusting the person with the "lock" on it 4) people shy away from animating (doesn't seem to be a problem here?) I'm working as if the ice world will be the first world. You just have to start somewhere and it could poke fun at supertux (or just make some funny references). |
Posted By: Hapiel
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:33pm
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we have to make a huge list of stuff we need, right?
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Posted By: Larwick
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:37pm
 ------------- http://larw-ck.deviantart.com">
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Posted By: kwigbo
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 12:38pm
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I am an actionscript developer by trade. These tools I am building are for my own use as well I'm just sharing. What this community wants to see in these tools is going to shape how they turn out. I hope to have a multilayer map editor soon. Target date February 29th. ------------- http://www.kwigbo.com">
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Posted By: 6dof
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:43pm
| Hey, I will help in any way I can, just tell me specifics like the colors, dimensions, and whatever is needed to be known! I love animating things too...maybe that can help. |
Posted By: surt
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 6:15pm
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What are the goals of the project? Just to create a game or to create a game to show off the skills of the Pixel Joint community and the qualities of pixel art at large? About visual consistency: If all graphics within the game are in the same style it will not allow much diversity in pixel art. What I would like to see is a bunch of worlds (level clusters) each with a distinct pixel style. Visually consistent within the world but stylistically distinct from other worlds. eg. nieborgesque forrest, mario style cutsey land, flashback style hightech world. If the game is going to be a pure platformer it is also rather limiting for the expression of various pixel art styles. You could remedy this with for example an iso over world, special levels in different play styles such as vertical shmup levels to progress onto another planet. What license will the graphics be under? LGPL would mean anyone could use them including closed source commercial projects. -------------
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Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 7:49pm
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They are all good questions surt. Of course we want to make a great game that showcases the art of the community, but if we are too ambitious we could end up with nothing, which is certainly worse than something in this case. Your questions about license and art style will have to go to the art lead. If google doesn't allow the images to have a different license, then the images will be hosted elsewhere. Overworlds can definitely provide opportunity to show-off if anyone is up for the challenge. Overworlds are planned, but the mini-games are not a priority for me right now. I don't want to sell anyone short, or be annoying by trying to be realistic. Positive criticism is always welcome. |
Posted By: spartan_117
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:06pm
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is there a story, i came up with one: long ago, pj was a peaceful community were people would go to the chatterbox and ramble their thoughts, were they would go to the forums and ask for help, were they would compete in the weekly challenge to practice their skills. One day, the active users of pj, became so good in pixel art that they began to think they were too good for pj, that why does pj need noobs when it has us. So they revolted by spreading their pixel art across pj and giving noobs a hard time. The protector of pj, the pj nerd, was not happy, so he began a quest to ban the pj terrorists by going to their profiles(levels), deleting their images(enemies), and finally banning them(boss battle). what do you think. ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:14pm
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Well, it's interesting, BUT we already have a story and worlds, so I don't know what you want people to say to your ideas  If you want to really be part of the project, start by: A) reading everything on the wiki B) reading this whole thread |
Posted By: Kee
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 11:45am
| I will try to help. What should i do? Make a sprite or something? |
Posted By: l3m0n5
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 2:36pm
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OH my Dear Mangos! I just gotta be a part of this! As for reading the entire wiki AND thread...ehehe ------------- "Hate is my enemy, Life is short and Life is plenty, keep my eyes on my path cuz i know who sent me" |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 4:51pm
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I've decided not to work on custom tools right now. If you want to see what's out there (I've evaluated some of them), follow this link. But don't work too hard on animating and making tile maps because they aren't the right format. http://gpwiki.org/index.php/Tools:Content#Game_Tools |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 12:47am
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Before I will start pixeling anything, isn't it a good idea (which is mentioned before) to make a list of items needed (items, baddies, etc.)? And also a sheet of pixels which are already approved for using. This way the style and setting is determined. ------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 12:04pm
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Yes, hold off on really pixeling anything until we become more organized and the art lead can make a list with the necessary items and sizes. But if you have ideas, just make rough sketches of your ideas. And if they are good and everyone likes them then those ideas might be used. It doesn't have to be pixel art because it's just concept art at this stage. |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 25 January 2008 at 3:49pm
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PixelBlink has given the OK to assign a new art lead. Get in touch if you want to lead. You should have a good understanding of pixel art and hopefully some experience with games. |
Posted By: greenraven
Date Posted: 25 January 2008 at 4:36pm
Unfortunately this position isn't going to be filled by me.  But good luck to whoever fills. And good luck with the game.  ------------- "pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso
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Posted By: Metaru
Date Posted: 25 January 2008 at 6:21pm
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i hope that the ones arround that already have some experience working in games may lead us, the ones who have not. ------------- I ate leel's babies |
Posted By: Hapiel
Date Posted: 26 January 2008 at 2:39am
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If I had more time I would gladly take that position (I do not have much experience in game programming exept GM myself but I have had lots of contacts who do) but I dont. ------------- |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 04 February 2008 at 12:05am
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Tracked down Ork's web space, where you can find the old versions of the C++ game (using SDL and his custom MPF engine). http://koti.mbnet.fi/satte/pj/ - http://koti.mbnet.fi/satte/pj/ |
Posted By: Talos
Date Posted: 04 February 2008 at 6:24pm
| I find this an interesting prospect, and the fact that no action lists are being made kinda bugs me. Most people don't use these, but those that do often have excelerated gameplay and graphics. Each object, sprite, monster etc. in the game could have a list of actions he/she/it can make/do and then sprite for each of these. Just a suggestion from a kid who likes pa and games. |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 05 February 2008 at 9:05pm
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I don't understand you really. Most games have sprites with different animations for each action. You just want to know what the actions are in a list now??? |
Posted By: Metaru
Date Posted: 05 February 2008 at 10:57pm
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what he says is that we need sprites(obiusly). and put those that we needs in a list would help us to have an idea of the current progress/organization. i.e: PJ: -Jump -die -idle -pick Monster -attack -die -move -idle etc. ------------- I ate leel's babies |
Posted By: Kee
Date Posted: 09 February 2008 at 1:51pm
| wait you said not to start pixeling rite? |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:18pm
| The project status is now: "On Hold" |
Posted By: keeling00
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 10:58am
| Why not make a gta 1 mod?? |
Posted By: BlackDragon
Date Posted: 15 February 2008 at 1:44pm
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Because this game is not Grand Theft Auto. It is a platformer.
And we want to keep it original.
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Posted By: keeling00
Date Posted: 16 February 2008 at 2:14pm
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Originally posted by BlackDragon
Because this game is not Grand Theft Auto. It is a platformer. And we want to keep it original. I only said the gta1 idea, because is very simple to pixel artists make a mod for gta (i'm talking about the art part of the game).
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Posted By: Metaru
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 6:50pm
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what part of "original" or "platformer" was not clear? ------------- I ate leel's babies |
Posted By: Blueberry_pie
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 9:00pm
| From what I've seen, the GTA games aren't exactly mod-friendly. I can't imagine making a GTA1 mod being any easier than making something from scratch, like the Flash prototype we had some time ago. |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 1:42pm
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A more feasible idea, if people are still thinking about the project, is to make a mod of "The Underside." The full game isn't out, but the mod tools have been released. The author will hopefully add support for new enemy/weapon types...which would be necessary for a PixelJoint mod. The game honors the pixel. Website Link: http://www.insignificantstudios.com/ - http://www.insignificantstudios.com/ |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 12:37am
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I'm thrilled. Hope this turns out good.
------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: 6dof
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:01pm
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I agree with the idea of creating a list of things (actions/monsters/characters) so that people can get a clear idea on how to start. If we can get some good ideas in, there is less of a chance this project will be dropped. A mod would save time, but I do not know if that's what everyone had in mind. |
Posted By: Club Beuker
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:27am
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Another thing that comes to mind. We also need some restriction in resolution for items/monsters/etc. Like 10px x 10px for items, 25px x 25px for small enemies, etc. This way it's easier to create and implement stuff. Right? ------------- Without me, it's just aweso |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 11:45am
Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, there is no art lead to create the specifications and the project is "on hold" indefinitely.  ------------- No sig kinda guy :'( |
Posted By: amerup
Date Posted: 01 March 2008 at 7:10am
| http://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6128 |
Posted By: Boder
Date Posted: 01 March 2008 at 3:15pm
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Nice try amigo, but no cigar. You only have four posts on these forums and you haven't shown us that you have the experience to lead. It's a community project you can't just slap up a post saying "Official" in the title, declaring there will be 8 worlds, and willy-nilly ask for people to give you pixel art. It was not about organization (well, slightly on the art side). It was mostly that the project is too large for one person to head. ------------- No sig kinda guy :'( |
Posted By: BlackDragon
Date Posted: 01 March 2008 at 4:03pm
| Hm yes lets save our energy for Larry okay Amerup? |
Posted By: kwigbo
Date Posted: 01 March 2008 at 9:30pm
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Removed Due to change of plans** ------------- http://www.kwigbo.com">
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