WIP (Work In Progress)
 Pixel Joint Forum : Pixel Art : WIP (Work In Progress)
Message Icon Topic: Pitcher WIP Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Topic: Pitcher WIP
    Posted: 17 December 2009 at 4:17pm
Here's a pixel pitcher (a pixtcher?) from a sketch.

I'd appreciate some feedback.
The pitcher itself is well into the refining stage, the bg not so.

The initial plan was to do it in 3 colors, there are 5 so far. I might still try it.

  

 
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2009 at 5:19pm


More refining, checked persp issues on pitcher (bottom mostly, top a bit), added wine, started texturing bg.

Now 10 colors + transp.

Edit:



New bg, without transparency. Not there yet.


Edited by Manupix - 19 December 2009 at 2:32am
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2009 at 7:49pm


I'm spending hours on this background without much improvement.
Grrr.
IP IP Logged
jeremy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2024
Location: New Zealand
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1704
Quote jeremy Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2009 at 8:32pm
Contrast between pitcher and background is important. Maybe use those purples? D'you have the pitcher (Or a picture of it)? Because if you're copying the sketch any mistakes just get compounded :)
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2009 at 7:03pm
     

Thanks for the color idea! I might have been overboard with it though. Here with yesterday's bg texture.
Then yesterday's colors again, with slightly different bg; then a crazy 2-color version. The middle one may still be my fav, but not finished yet.

It takes so long working on this kind of textures.

Contrast: do you think there's too much??? I find it rather low...
No, I don't have the thing, only the sketch, and that was a quick one, the bg was not like that at all. It was more of a study of light, and for that it was helpful with the pixelling.
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2009 at 11:33am


More versions, including one using the Jpalette.
Why is this bg so difficult to get right???

This won't be finished this year. :S
IP IP Logged
skamocore
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3866
Quote skamocore Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2009 at 12:38pm
IMO the biggest problem with the bg is that it is non-sensical...There's a shadow created by the pitcher which implies depth, but the rest of the background is just a flat abstract pattern, which I think makes it hard to focus. It kind of makes me think of this:



Just something I whipped up:


IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2009 at 3:33pm
Thx for the feedback.

It's supposed to be a flat nondescript surface, maybe a table top. 1st versions tried to give that some texture, with suggestions of lines around 0° and 70°+; then hints of light and persp were introduced from the 4th version, around 30-45°, and texture gradually disappeared.

But if you don't see it, then it just doesn't work. Sigh.
Well, I'm going to be reunited with this pitcher in the next few days, I might try real life experiments with it. Also means I'll be away from my work computer and any pretense at color control though. Re-sigh.
IP IP Logged
skamocore
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3866
Quote skamocore Replybullet Posted: 30 December 2009 at 7:46pm
Another edit:



Maybe a hint of a horizon line could give the piece more of a focus though. Now looking over the rest I can see this is almost what you had in your first post.

Anyway, was the sketch based on anything - photo/real life/etc...?

Maybe you could add some extra objects into the scene; also, this was a challenge we ran a while back, you could maybe draw some inspiration from that.
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2010 at 11:26am
Yes, I sketched from a real pitcher, but did not try to be realistic on the bg because I was mostly concerned by light. I thought the same approach would work for the pixelling.
Thanks for the tips anyway, there are some awesome entries in that challenge. Too bad it was not in 2009, I would have entered now. I might do something with it still, that palette is wonderful.
Meanwhile I'll do more sketches of the pitcher with some bg.
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 21 February 2010 at 3:03pm
Back on track with this guy.

I sketched it again last month. I realized I had got the shape wrong the first time, it's much more interesting than the mere oval I remembered.
Somehow I always manage to get the proportions wrong when I sketch; the left one is closest.



Newest pixels:



I think I have the bg issue under control now. It's not finished, but I can see I have the desired 'light on table' effect, with an acceptable composition.

But I'm no longer in love with the random dithering. I'll probably try again the 'crosshatching' I used for the hand.


IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2010 at 9:06pm


Back to some checkerboard dithering. The volume looks like it's improved. Still some way to go though.
IP IP Logged
Robinhood
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 18 May 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 245
Quote Robinhood Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2010 at 2:06pm
Great improvement on volume and texture.  Contrast is looking better too.  Only thing bothering me is the square looking shadings near the bottom left corner.

I really like the colors from

Right now colors are a bit under saturated.  I really liked the crosshatching style, this would look pretty awesome with that too.

IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2010 at 4:32pm
Thanks!
No more square looking shadings.



Various light fixes, trying to make the shape obvious. Not really convincing yet, though better than the last one.

Colors: I'll probably stick to this. None of the other versions I tried looks right.

Crosshatching: I'd like to try, but it will probably be even more difficult to get the volume right, I don't promise I'll be patient enough!
IP IP Logged
meagz
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 09 December 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 123
Quote meagz Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2010 at 12:19am
something about where the bottom of the handle connects to the pitcher just doesnt look right to me.... can't quite figure it out though.

the middle curve of the jug is lopsided, maybe?



the rest of your curves are elliptical but that one goes up real sharp on the left.

IP IP Logged
Manjaman
Midshipman
Midshipman
Avatar

Joined: 02 October 2016
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Quote Manjaman Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2010 at 1:40pm
Really interesting topic and great results so far Please, try to use crosshatching on this, your hand was epic.
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2010 at 6:04pm
Meagz, you're magic!

       Latest:

Yep, something was wrong there!

The red ellipses are those I used so far. The large one is actually OK (but my former shading was confused and didn't look like following it), but the small one is wrong! When drawn in correct perspective from the top and bottom ellipses, the blue small one should be OK.

And then, it's suddenly easy to make the shading according to the shape, which at last becomes clear!

Thankssss. I love you! ;)


Manjaman: I promise I'll try!
IP IP Logged
meagz
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 09 December 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 123
Quote meagz Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2010 at 11:09pm
looking much better :)
in the area where your blue circle is, it looks like its convex not concave because of the shading...

IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 28 February 2010 at 1:11pm
Thanks, again! Good eye!



Two close versions, I've spent too long looking at them and can't decide which is best.

It's possible the problem is not fixed. Part of it is, I should make the lightest spots of this upper section come down lower, but then the plane change limit (blue ellipse) would disappear.

Also, I don't have that blooming thing with me (not before next May!), so I can't check how light actually works on it. I thought I had captured it in the sketches: so much for that.

Last look before posting: the problem is not fixed. I'll have to make at least the bright spot reach down to the ellipse. Whoever knows what happens then.


Edit: to unzoom, ctrl+click (maybe something else on macs).


Edited by Manupix - 28 February 2010 at 1:12pm
IP IP Logged
meagz
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 09 December 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 123
Quote meagz Replybullet Posted: 28 February 2010 at 2:15pm
looking better, i agree, its that bright spot that's throwing it off now.
i like the first version. i think maybe just make the bright spot thinner, right now, it's bigger than the highlight on the convex part. maybe make it 3-5 pixels across, instead of 13ish?

the handle is looking awesome now, by the way. forgot to mention before

Edited by meagz - 28 February 2010 at 2:17pm
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2010 at 7:38pm
Hey guys. Back to the forum!
I can't believe I started this almost a year ago, and didn't come back to it for so long.

I've finally realized that my problem was trying to both shade and texture at the same time. Countless times have I poured fire upon people for doing just that, and rightly so: it just doesn't work!
So a while ago I removed all dithering and fixed the shading, not so satisfactorily again.

Today I decided to work directly from a photograph I had meanwhile taken of the thing, and made a few color reductions to understand better how light works with it. That was interesting, because it shows that the boundaries between colors can change very much in shape according to how many boundaries you want. The consequence of this is that trying to copy the shading either from the original, or the picture, is hopeless: no eye can see those boundaries.
Finally, arbitrarily deciding them according to the general behavior visible in the redux, and so that the volume looks correct was the thing to do.
I dithered temporarily with simple lines because it was obvious dithering would play a part in the shading; then I liked those lines better than the checkerboards and decided to go for them. Also, new color choices: I might well opt for the brightest.

Is this nearing the end at last?








IP IP Logged
skamocore
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2021
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3866
Quote skamocore Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2010 at 8:07pm
Definitely looking better. Unfortunately though, I'm going to have to say that the background is still competing with the pitcher. It's actually distracting and makes the perspective harder to understand. Why not a table like the actual photo?
IP IP Logged
jalonso
Admiral
Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 29 November 2022
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13537
Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2010 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by skamocore

...the background is still competing with the pitcher.

Agree! Great thread.
IP IP Logged
jeremy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2024
Location: New Zealand
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1704
Quote jeremy Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2010 at 10:09pm
Agreed with ska. I think you're trying to cram too mush into too little space, (e.g. no. 1). The single-pixel noise doesn't well represent the smoothness of the jug. If you look at the photo, the shadow doesn't mirror the highlight (no. 2). I made the rim a bit lighter (no. 4), and took away the hatched dither there. It sorta confused the gradiation of tone rather than making it smoother. Finally, the purple liquid isn't noticeable in the version I edited, it works a bit better in the more sepia one though :)

so yeah, look forward to seeing it finished (:


IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2010 at 1:43pm
Thanks guys <3 ! Great input.

ska: makes the perspective harder to understand
Ouch... because it's a flat surface in my mind since the first sketch, I just assumed everyone would see it like that. Eye opener for sure!
Why not a table?
Well, I kind of tested that in the early versions, at least in my mind again! Wasn't satisfying then.
So I'm trying to make it simpler, and to hint at flatness and perspective with those broad lines (still quite rough at the moment).
I also had the maybe not so good idea to add wine stains as a perspective help. It might work but messes up the composition a bit.

Jeremy: cool edits!
1 > right, that was a leftover from previous stages.
2 > not sure I understand what you mean: that I didn't draw the reflections and speculars as visible on the glossy surface? That's right, and I didn't really think about them.
Actually I have this problem with light that the early sketch and pixel had a certain light which I couldn't exactly duplicate for the picture (even though the setup was almost exactly the same, light coming from the same northward (northern hemisphere!) window). Mainly the nice diffuse reflected light of the early versions is no longer there.
You're right about the wine not being visible in the high color version, I will probably stay with the second version.

Anyway, I undithered again, and reworked the shading. Then I tried different unfamiliar texturing patterns. I'll have to study Dawnbringer some more... There I am now, one undithered and 2 textdithered versions.
One advantage of those textures could be that I'll be able to use simple lines on the bg, which I didn't before because of conflict with the jug.




Also: OUCH 59-16



Edited by Manupix - 28 November 2010 at 1:47pm
IP IP Logged
jeremy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2024
Location: New Zealand
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1704
Quote jeremy Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2010 at 2:48pm
For #2, I meant that the ridged bit (see red in pic) isn't as visible on the shadowed side. IMO, you could leave it out, or reduce it, and still make it clear that it has that shape thanks to the light side.



Also, that little weird specular was my failed attempt at some kind of condensation/drip effect. Don't be afraid to fudge a bit with any areas that arise in the future either, such as putting a little highlight in the shadow at the bottom left of the pitcher to make the shape more readable.

Bonne Continuation :)
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2010 at 6:07pm
I see! Guess you're right; I'll check that in the next versions.
Merci! ;)

Meanwhile, 2 experiments, not very conclusive:
I did check Dawnbringer's work and for the first time I've begun to understand something about his textures. It involves colors of close values and different hues. It happens the wine colors are in this kind of relation to the jug colors: I just had to try. Needs more work and study...
Then, I think I might not be able to solve this without a new color, since one value gap in the mid-tones is too wide. So here's a quick test with an additional color -- this is costing me dearly in self-esteem!
Also I made the wine stain somewhat nicer; it might stay after all.





Edited by Manupix - 28 November 2010 at 6:08pm
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2010 at 5:20pm


I might have found a way out of some issues.
The decisive point was to balance the palette value jumps better, reducing the gap between the 2 midtones. This makes the mid jug boundary more acceptable. Hues will still need shifting.
Also I turned the wine into water ;) which is nicer and reduces the palette to the original amount of 5 colors; then improved the stains.
I went back to the irregular texture dither which is probably the best so far, even though it will still need refining. No more Dawnbringer patterns for now, although I'll have to explore that some more.


Edited by Manupix - 29 November 2010 at 5:21pm
IP IP Logged
Manupix
Commander
Commander
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2024
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 771
Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2011 at 7:07pm
FI-NISHED !!!!! And uploaded and I don't want to hear about it ever again. Ok, jus' kiddin' :S



After, again, innumerable and inconclusive trials and changes and tests, I decided to keep what worked best from previous versions. Texturing is consequently a bit of a patchwork, but I'm now convinced that a really clean rendering would require a large palette. That, or I suck.
Colors being still not satisfying, I tried some of my previous palettes then borrowed palettes from other artists and settled on something inspired by (not copied!) this piece by iLKke.
Why was I not able to come up by myself with a working palette for this, I wonder. I should rely more on technique and less on chance to pick my colors.

Thanks again for the help! <3 =)





Edited by Manupix - 03 January 2011 at 7:09pm
IP IP Logged
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum