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Locke
Seaman
Joined: 08 January 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
![]() Topic: [PAID & UNPAID] Character Sprites, Tiles, and MorePosted: 08 January 2012 at 8:48pm |
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Hello all, first time posting, not the first time visiting.
I'm developing a game (I've been developing several over the years, lost a lot in hard drive crashes, so I don't have a lot of stuff I can post as examples), as most people are. I'm a programmer, working solo, and I do well at this. I got into game development back in the RPG Maker '95 days. I've done a little bit of each role in the amateur side of development, but I have a degree in Computer Science, and as such, I excel most at programming. That being said, I've finally gotten an engine and concept to a point that it makes sense to ask for outside help -- and that I want to make the commitment to move forward and involve other people. Webhost also knocked out my old site (have swapped providers since then, had to restart a new SVN repository for code as well), which can be viewed here -- I didn't bother to make a backup since it was just a blog. You can find a snapshot here and what I was working on: http://web.archive.org/web/20110207183739/http://kaiser-engine.com/ Some example images (warning: large, so I won't show directly via a link) of the engine: http://shardweb.net/AutoTiling.png http://shardweb.net/Terraforming.png ...and here's a more up to date screenshot (still not very pretty, with debug grid lines on and a very poorly modeled tree!) -- the water is animated too:
The idea is simple -- I'm making a 2.5D (3D world, 2D characters ala Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea, Xenogears, Breath of Fire III/IV, etc) online game that uses a lot of neat mathematical tricks to expand on for virtually forever (256x256 maps with a map's coordinates ranging from -2 billion in X/Y to 2 billion in X/Y). A lot of concepts are involved that other games use for instancing, replication, and generation, but trying to pull it all together. The engine successfully generates worlds of infinite size (mind you, we can get away without making it infinitely large in your memory by only loading what is necessary and removing what is unnecessary) with infinite variation. The screenshots in the snapshot of my old blog are not indicative of what it currently looks like for variation in terrain/patterns and variations therein. The tile quality is still pretty poor and unvaried, since I tossed it together in a few hours. However, putting in minor variations to the tiles, the algorithms produce patterns in the world that are not as obvious as what is shown. That being said, here's a little (re: actually a lot of) info, according to the guidelines: 1) Company Info: Transcendental Games is a brand new, indie company (if not amateur at the moment). I have assistance in the web development aspect (i.e. my new site) thanks to my designer girlfriend, but aside from that -- I'm the only one working on this. I intend on filing for a LLC for Transcendental in the next six months to be legit. I, myself, am a software developer, and have been writing code since I was 10 (poorly). I've been writing DECENTLY since 14. I'm now 26 and have a great amount of respect from the lead architects of all systems where I work. I'm one of only about 100 people in the world who knows how to use a new Microsoft technology (which I cannot talk about due to NDA's). As an intern in college, I was able to change business reports from generating in 4 hours to about 15 seconds (something the full time employees with Master's degrees couldn't figure out). In short, I work hard and I've been working hard on optimizing and making amazing real-time systems for a LONG time. I've been doing it professionally for about 5 years. That's who I am. 2) Job Info: I need a bit of EVERYTHING for the project I'm working on. In order or urgency: a) Character Sprites (which will be subdivided into three segments -- head, torso, and legs -- when added together to build a full sprite, it will be about 32x64 pixels in total). I just need a naked doll that can be used in a paper-doll system. Stylistically, this would be somewhat cute and "chibi" in an Anime sense -- much like the games I listed in the 2.5D engine example. I *really* need a character pixel artist at this point so that I can focus on having animations and having a firm basis to start building the rest of the game on. Everything else after this will eventually come into play. Specifics: * 5 Directions (North, Northwest, West, Southwest, and South) -- three will be mirrored to save space (Northwest -> Northeast; West -> East; Southwest -> Southeast). * Each segment (legs, torso, and head) will be ~26x26 per frame, with the true frame size of 32x32 for overlap as necessary -- this will give room for moving arms, legs, etc. In summary, though, the height of legs should be about 32 pixels high, the height of the torso should be about 32 pixels high, and the maximum height of the head should be about 32 pixels high. * Ideally, my pixel artist will be separating these segments out, so that I don't have to do this extra work. b) Tiles (32x32, with some formatting required for the terraforming and edge systems, so that everything overlaps/generates -- it's pretty easy stuff if you're a tile artist and can almost be cut out) c) Animations - the actual animation frames for something like a sword slash, a flame spell, etc. 3) Payment/Salary: I'm capable of negotiating on pricing. Ideally hoping to be paying about $5-10/completed frame (32x96 in size), since that is what is currently in my budget. I have a few friends "in the industry" who have suggested what going rates ought to be per hour and per frame. Please keep in mind that this game generates no revenue at the moment (and is pre-Alpha), so I cannot afford to pay you like a normal development studio with funding or a publisher would. My goal is to take everything in steps -- I've put together an engine that works first, then will register a business before I have servers running -- and somewhere in between [i.e. right now], I'm looking for someone to help with resources. If I can only afford so much this month, then I'll get what I can this month and try to buy more of your effort/work next month, so that it pushes the game forward. In software development, we call this iterative development -- building a system one cycle at a time -- like building a house, worrying about foundation first, with a general idea of WHAT will be on top. At this point, I have foundation, plumbing, and framing up, but I need some folks to start laying out some bricks! As this gets further along (ideally by or before July), I'd like to be setting aside a good deal of money per month (about $1,000) so that I have a library of sprites that I can use by the time I intend on having a simple beta (which should be by the end of this year). Longer term -- taking a gander that this could make money (unfortunately, there is no guarantee), I seek to pay a bit more competitively than others are and be extremely flexible on work. If you can do an entire years worth of content (we'll plan it out in advance) in three months, take the other nine months to do whatever you want (there may be minor emergency interruptions), while we continue paying you for the rest of that year. I understand that from a creative side, sometimes we work at odd hours, etc. I've been fortunate to work in a job where we only care "about getting things done." If we decide to work from home for a week, it doesn't matter -- so long as things get done. We're far more productive this way, and this is the kind of company culture I'd like to kindle. I realize that resources are what will make this engine succeed -- and I really want to treat a handful of awesome artists like rock-stars and keep them happy. I know it's all hypothetical, but I have plotted out somewhat of a business plan and spreadsheet worrying about income, splitting, and will be willing to share it if requested. 4. E-mail Address: taylor AT transcendentalgames DOT com 5. Website: http://www.transcendentalgames.com/ Yes, it's very plain, but we have something in the works. It's easier to fill a site with content, once I have someone who can help me with the content. I will be showing off my pixel-artists work. 6. Previous Projects: I have a lot of prior projects that have been lost in hard drive crashes, etc. I, unfortunately, cannot offer much in the realm of what I've done in terms of game development, since it is extremely limited, and I've lost most of the RPG Maker games I built back in the day, as well as the 2D engines I programmed before this (I will never buy a Western Digital Hard drive again -- lost an internal and external within a week of each other, when internal had my work and the external had the backup of it). My own credentials are as follows: I'm a certified Microsoft Certified Professional Developer (Enterprise Applications) for .NET 2.0 and 3.5 (upgraded my 2.0 to 3.5 in the past year). I worked on DIKU/SMAUG MUD code-bases at the age of 14 (and I'm still on the mailing list for SMAUG, on another email address). I *try* to understand what John Carmack is talking about in his bits on the industry (I've met him a few times at Quake Con) -- in particular, his mega-texturing idea was extremely fascinating -- it's basically utilizing common database storage patterns for things like SQL Server, Oracle, etc, in such a way that you can make INSANELY detailed textures based on depth). At work, I develop a library/platform for real-time event-processing systems and am the youngest member on the team (by about 20 years), due to my ability of understanding complex programming problems (multiple threads and their synchronization, low-level network coding, design patterns) and working with/building API's (libraries that programmers can use to build applications/code/etc). I actually managed to fix something that had the team lead (an ex-Microsoft guy) had been struggling with and have improved the performance of that part by about 20%. Currently, I have a game client, gateway server (think a load-balancer to handle logins and updates), and an actual game server (where you play on), working. According to Line Counter, I have 15,063 lines of code (you can take out about 2,000 lines from auto-generated muck from Windows Forms code) -- so 13,063 lines of pure game code. It is built on top of OpenGL, SDL, and the Mono Framework, so it ports without much of a hitch (I'll have to update the build script, but no changes to source code -- not like developing for Xbox 360 and PS3 in parallel with two code bases) to Mac OS X and Linux. I know *how* to program and make this work. The engine runs *fine* on my 1.1 gHz netbook (although, the initial load-time is significantly slower than my quad-core laptop [Alienware]). I would love to work something out with anyone who will entertain the offer. I'm looking for inexpensive rates on good material so that I have a strong foundation. If the game or idea bombs and never takes off, I'd be glad to return the rights of the material to you, such that it can *actually be used* or shopped around or placed for public domain use by you. I'm trying to be a reasonable person about this and be very relaxed, because I know it's a lot to ask of all of the talent here. I'm a programmer and as such, programming is my strength. Without resources, it's hard to show much of anything that will look decent. My goal is simple: 1) if this project does succeed, I want to honor and help out the people who helped me succeed. The game is literally NOTHING but an engine without resources. I can build the structure of this house, per say, but without the brick-layers, decorators, flooring/ceiling, moulding craftsmen, cabinet makers, and so forth, the house will be empty and void of any real character. It has potential, but it lacks soul. You will be helping me breathe life into it. 2) if this project does not succeed, I want you to have something that you can use to try to succeed in your own future projects. Thanks and sorry for my long-winded essay! Edited by Locke - 09 January 2012 at 8:28pm |
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Markus Hanka
Seaman
Joined: 26 December 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
![]() Posted: 09 January 2012 at 8:07am |
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Hello Locke,
I found your "long-winded essay" quite interesting to read. The way you are rendering the terrain is somehow appealing. But there is no lightsource in your screenshots. Everything is really dreary. And this is not because there are no objects, people etc. but no lights and shadows. Without the white lines it is impossible to read the differences of height. And even with the white lines it is near impossible at first sight. Here is a link to an old game based on a similar terrainbuiding principle: http://www.pressxordie.com/wp-content/uploads/Empty-Park.png Also you didn't mention any game ideas. Wouldn't this be the next priority before getting to the graphics. You need a person walking around, but why is he there, what is he doing and how is his appearance? There should be something that makes your game unique. The world is expanding forever? Somehow you would have to create content, quests, characters for that. If all of this would be created randomly it would be very repetitive and boring. Big sandbox games became really popular in the last years, but it costs the developers years and millions of dollars to fill them with unique content. I think your project could be really special but it is missing something essential. |
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Locke
Seaman
Joined: 08 January 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
![]() Posted: 09 January 2012 at 2:45pm |
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Markus, thank you for the read.
There is no light source at the moment because I had it turned off and was making tweaks -- no worries, though, it'll be back in the future, but that's not the priority. Totally agreed on lack of shadows killing the depth-maps (which is why I had the grid on to help diagnose what was going on -- the tile transitions have taken a while to finally get to a perfect point). It's an online game, so the character's creation and storyline is up to the storytelling engine I'm implementing in the back-end. There will be different "stories" whenever a character is created. Yes, sometimes you may have the same start, but ultimately, everyone arrives at more-or-less the same town the same way. In short, a cataclysm occurs and the character finds their way through it, ultimately arriving at the center of a town. The center of the town has a giant fortification and story progresses to reveal to the player that some kind of "end of the world" scenario has occurred, but most people are still in the dark about what actually happened. If you've seen the Big O TV series, you can think SOMETHING kind of like that. Nobody in that show has a past, but in mine, they will likely have something -- or at least points leading up to it. The world is instanced off to each player -- which sounds like a bad idea, but most of the time, you don't want to have to bump into other people. There are areas where you can group up with others though -- and when you're in a party, the world is instanced off to that party. So, the idea is that it becomes more fun. There are also opportunities to meet and group with other people, such that you can play with them on specific party (or individual) quests that involve puzzles and mazes. There's a lot of work involved and a lot of stuff in process of being built. I hope that answers some of your questions. If you have any more or would like me to expand, I would be glad to. Just please ask! |
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PixelSnader
Commander
Not a troll! Joined: 08 January 2026 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3194 |
![]() Posted: 10 January 2012 at 4:29pm |
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Do you have a game design document, or just some ideas and a bit of coded tech demo?
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Locke
Seaman
Joined: 08 January 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
![]() Posted: 10 January 2012 at 10:06pm |
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I have both -- the game design document is evolving a lot at the moment and I'd like to keep it under wraps. If I publish everything about it, anyone could write it. Call me a little greedy to keep it from public eyes. There is a concrete plan, though, and I do have a whiteboard at my house marked with the "next" steps for things I need to do in code.
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Markus Hanka
Seaman
Joined: 26 December 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
![]() Posted: 10 January 2012 at 11:48pm |
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I recommend you and everyone else who is thinking that someone will steal their game idea to give this link a reading:
http://www.lostgarden.com/2005/08/why-you-should-share-your-game-designs.html Someone will have to write those stories and make the according art and you won't attract these people if you don't share your vision. In addition the "cataclysm-story" in a mangastyle game sounds like the most generic and cliche-ridden story ever. I don't know how many people feel like me, but it becomes harder and harder to immerse myself in a gameworld, because they feel all the same. I wish indie-developers above all would create more games with fresh scenarios. This could set your game apart from the usual uninspired mass and get your project some helpful attention. If you can pitch an outline of a unique story/scenario, post a few nice-looking screenshots and convey your competence and commitment in a shorter post, I am sure you can enthuse some people to work with you together. You will find more artists at http://www.game-artist.net/forums/ and maybe http://www.gamedev.net/forum/8-help-wanted/ |
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Locke
Seaman
Joined: 08 January 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
![]() Posted: 11 January 2012 at 4:17pm |
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Not trying to start a flame war here, but I didn't want to share my ideas with someone who had 1 post and registered shortly before I posted. Just seems like a bad idea. Not to mention the fact that you're referencing a blog that is pretty focused on acceptance of plagiarism. The blog's opinion is skewed. I have my own viewpoint, and I'm not budging. :) The people in the need-to-know who are collaborating know more about it.
I actually wrote the story and I have a number of quests written down to advance the game storyline, in addition to the instanced quests and missions. While you may believe it to be very bland and generic, there are a number of ideas that are incredibly fresh -- you will actually feel a presence in the game world. NPC's will know about what you do and who you are. There's an entire underlying engine that watches what you do and tries to figure out WHY you are doing it. Creepy, kind of. The storyline has not been done in a game yet. Yes, post-apocalyptic games have been done a million times. Despite the apocalypse, the game has some semblance to a renaissance and enlightening age. I liked that the Mesoamericans actually believed that there would not be a cataclysm in 2012, but rather, the era would change. So there's kind of elements of both mixed into it. Nobody really knows what's going on. The best I could explain is that you could think of it having a lot of other "dimensions" in it, and that will be addressed by the storyline. I already have storyline/quest collaborators, some who have actually worked for FunCom. :) |
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Markus Hanka
Seaman
Joined: 26 December 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
![]() Posted: 11 January 2012 at 9:35pm |
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Maybe i am new to this forum but there is a link to my homepage in my profile (just two mouseclicks away). To think there is someone who wants to steal your great game idea, who is also willing to work months or more likely years to develop a mmo that is not based on his own idea is a little bit paranoid.
I'm working since over 3 years as a professional game artist in the industry and let me tell you: A game idea on paper, something that hasn't even been prototyped yet, doesn't have any value. If you think otherwise you have no idea of the actual development process. It is all about implementing the ideas in a game. And don't think what you wrote on paper will actually work in your game. You entirely missed the point of the link to the blog I posted. Two developers will create two completely different games based on the same idea. The idea is just a starting point. And everone has more than enough ideas himself. No one will ever steal your game idea! To get someone to work on a project that is not their own you usually have to pay them. When reading your first post, how should anyone know that you have even thought about a story or written something down. You could be just another 13 year old boy planning the next World of Warcraft. Why should someone help you with such a massive project for free? But i got the feeling that you are at least commited to your project which is not taken for granted. So I wanted to point out some possible flaws. The more you share your ideas and documents the more people can make useful suggestions you wouldn't have thought of by yourself otherwise. And if you still think your new and absolute unique idea is the greatest money maker ever: Only ideas that have proven themselfes successful get "stolen". Think about Tower Defence. Those developers are all thiefs in your opinion? |
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Locke
Seaman
Joined: 08 January 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
![]() Posted: 14 January 2012 at 12:32am |
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Fair enough, but I didn't bother to check out your personal homepage link. At the same time, I also can understand about two different ideas. However, there is a difference in being the first to market with an idea. *IF* (and this is stretching it a bit) some professional studio saw my ideas, took note, and beat me to it, people would say, "Hey, this guy Locke copied that game studios' idea!" or something of that nature.
Funny enough, all of my journals on this game (on pen and paper) I was hoping to publish in some kind of free online e-book once I'm "done" enough with the game. I think partially to show anyone that they can do it -- it just takes a bit of dedication. At the same time, I don't mind showing how things work -- I'm a hacker by trade (in the traditional sense, not in the phreaker/cracker/malicious sense of the word -- a traditional hacker is someone who just wants to understand how things "work"). It only makes sense to offer up some of the workings (obviously, encryption and important details will be left out, but other entire systems, steps taken, etc, will be shown). In any case, there is a hidden design document in my collaborative portal for my team. I'll probably open that up once I'm "done" as well. Anyone who has been on my team long enough has access to it in our intranet. I appreciate your input, Markus, and don't think that I don't agree with some of your points. I just feel that by controlling access when I'm fleshing out some of these systems will make it a lot easier to get to the point I want with less chaos involved. I think one of the times to start introducing new ideas/checks (and publishing my own ideas) is when the game is in an open alpha -- when people can see what is going on, give input, and then we all move forward, together. I just want to finish the prototype, if that makes sense. I understand there are some flaws, and yes, I am paranoid to a degree, but I don't want to leave anything to chance if I can help it. I have some free-for-use tiles from Doppleganger (from here) that I'm using in the meantime -- with a simple base (that I'm paying for) it should give me enough room to build what I want, before opening everything up. In the future, I'll probably do this... but I need a big enough team where it won't take me a year or two of my own time just to get the engine working correctly and factored. When it becomes an everyday thing for me for work, I would definitely consider your approach to test if it worked. At that point, though, I think it'd be easier to pay someone, haha. Best of luck to you, Markus, on your own endeavors, but if you're a professional, it sounds like you're already well on your way to success. :) Also, I have a paid sprite artist now, officially, after many applicants. If anyone is interested in doing other work for no payment because the project interests you, or you believe you're amazing with something that are not character sprites and want to prove it to me, I'll consider looking at what you have to offer. If it is truly outstanding, I will *have* to hire and pay you, |
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