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Lakelezz
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2015 at 3:01pm
Wow! What else have I to say but wow!
This is some really lovely feedback of your's, Jalonso :)
I am astonished of your commitment and neat presentation showing all the layers being used for the comparision. Even pointing out the "odd bits" to fully understand my bad habits.
Just saved this picture on my ressource folder in order to get and learn the most out of it.
Your suggestions were pretty much amazing and helped me a lot to understand using my lines even better!

Here is the result:



I am pretty satisfied with the outcome and could hopefully understand enough of your example to solve all the problems as you did.

Just thank you, Jalonso :)

Anything else which could be considered changed or should I do a cut here and publish it? I am always pretty undecided about that :S


Edited by Lakelezz - 08 March 2015 at 3:02pm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2015 at 7:55pm
You are welcome. Its what we're all here for :)
You lines are much cleaner now and I hope you noticed how 'stepping' lines always help thing flow.
You have some coloring issues as it pertains to coloring shadows and some AA inconsistencies but as this was a line exercise I won't bother you...this time :p
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2015 at 8:32am
Originally posted by jalonso

[...]
You have some coloring issues as it pertains to coloring shadows and some AA inconsistencies but as this was a line exercise I won't bother you...this time :p


Haha, you are not bothering me at all! The colours are a tough thing in this one for me.
First I tried something out with more saturation but I disliked it and returned to this lower saturated one.
If you have some advices on the colours for this piece feel free to "bother" me :P

Here comes my new edit - focused on cleaning the AA more and changing the darkest red shade to a purple tone:



The shade edit was simply because I wanted this piece to look more interesting and less predictable in it's colour ramp.
Well, I will have to keep changing the shades and colours until they really satisfy me.


Edited by Lakelezz - 09 March 2015 at 8:33am
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 6:28am
Will your final pixel retain the blue BG?
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 6:34am
No, this background will be removed! Do you think I should stick to hue shifting to become more original? The other option would be analysing her anime colour more.


Edited by Lakelezz - 10 March 2015 at 6:36am
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 6:41am
I was going to make an edit and just wanted to know if the BG was going to be in the final or if it would be trans.
Because you are using a blue BG then colors are affected.
Many like a plain grey (on the darker side) BG to work their colors out so as to have as little effect as possible.
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 7:03am
Oh then I probably should remove the background! It was planned anyway!
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 8:21am
I meant having a plain grey BG as you work to keep a cleaner eye on color as oppsoed to any shade with a color. You can remove BG when done.
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 12:29pm
Oh, thanks. Is this grey dark enough?



Only some really small adjustments - not colour-wise though. Nonetheless I tried some colour tweaking but I did not like them.


Edited by Lakelezz - 10 March 2015 at 12:30pm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 1:56pm
The grey is a personal thing.
What you have there is very close to what I use.
Notice how your greys in the shirt and socks now look bluer than they did before.
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2015 at 2:36pm
Yes! My mistake was that I took the same blue as being used for the base of her shirt. First it was bit darker but then I changed it which was a rather bad idea I guess.
Honestly I am mainly working on those transparent-tiles indicating a transparent area and when I want to publish a new progress I save them onto a background. Back then I simply published them transparent.

Any specific recommendation about the colours/shades? The purple shade might be too dark - not sure though.


Edited by Lakelezz - 10 March 2015 at 2:37pm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2015 at 5:17am
I reviewed and went thru your colors and they are just fine and I find nothing wrong at all (not a color expert).
I did tweak them for levels and balance and my palette is on the right side.
You mention that you see something not quite working right and I was going to attempt to illustrate that sometimes its not just the colors but the lightsource and was going to show you how different lighting using the same colors can make the colors look different. I decided not to do this however because I felt it would both sway you from your artistic direction and possibly send you back to the start and since nothing is really wrong with what you have. I decided to go ahead and show you what little I did start on.
For future pixels just remember that the lightsource direction and angle is part of the palette and overall color.

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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2015 at 12:09pm
Haha, your edit looks good but too 3d-like for the intended style :P
Nonetheless I like you palette. I will try to care more about the light as a general indicator for the palette!

This is what your palette changes plus some of my personal adjustment ended up with:



I might change the skin tone a bit more since I feel like it should be more like my previous one.

Three more questions before I tend to call myself finished on this in order to move on:
Do you think the upper hair highlight on the left side (the 1-1-1-1 line mixed of AA and brighter red) does band?

The same goes for the highlight on the right side. Does this band too?

Finishing of with the last question: Is a black line (as you suggest in your palette) working completely in this? Should it be a straight pure black? I see many different lovely pieces with blackish outlines and  also hear quite diverse suggestions.




Edited by Lakelezz - 11 March 2015 at 12:23pm
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2015 at 12:31pm
it bands a little, as does some of your areas that have too much AA (AA at 45 degree lines arent often needed), but you arent really getting any of the negative aspects of banding anywhere, mainly due to how big the image is. 

I think the black is working, since you reserve it mainly for outlines and very minimally for shadows.  You really want to avoid too much black for shading, as shadows aren't really black and it can hurt depth. but you've used it well.  :)  I'd call this finished. 


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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2015 at 12:37pm
Hey Friend!
So my perception was right? Should I remove those AA banding in order to provide a more lovely zoom-in haha?
Where are those other areas of banding just to be sure?

Yes, this piece was a lot fun and great experience :)


Edited by Lakelezz - 11 March 2015 at 12:37pm
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 11 March 2015 at 4:08pm
yes your perception was right.  You dont have to remove the AA, since it is not effecting the image unless you zoom in.  even still, it doesnt really change the artistic merit of the piece.  You have to make the call.  As a pixel artist, it isn't necessary to be this obsessive of details like this, especially at this size.  Generally, the smaller the size, the more you can be nitpicky about these things.  No one is going to care that you have some slight AA banding in this piece.  Generally, it demonstrates great pixel work, and that is enough.  Stop worrying so much and keep pixeling new stuff ^_^  Maybe something smaller so all of this focus you have on wanting to improve your technique will be useful.

In the edit-

orange= some think it is ok, I personally avoid it since i consider it a kind of banding.  You can decide for yourself whether you keep it or not

red-worst aa offenders.  For you, it is usually 45 degree lines.  45 degress lines rarely need aa.

Notice how the changes I did didn't really improve your image unless maybe if you zoom in?  Yeah, your piece is done, time for new stuff! Great job.


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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2015 at 2:47pm
Nice example of what I have done wrong! Thanks a lot, Friend! I looked for similarities and tried to understand it on my own in order to learn it :)
The marked areas gave me some neat tips of where to look but still I found many more points which I felt like where banding too much.



Well the last thing which is still bugging me is the 45-degree hair highlight strands. Without the AA they do not shine as much but with they might be a bad way of providing it.

Any suggestions?


Edited by Lakelezz - 12 March 2015 at 2:48pm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2015 at 2:54pm
Its all fine.
AAing 45 degree lines is considered bad pixelling ;)
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2015 at 2:56pm
Yes, I thought that it is bad :D Any way to fix this? Without the AA it loses the shining appearance and does not fit to the other highlights :/


Edited by Lakelezz - 12 March 2015 at 2:57pm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2015 at 3:13pm
No. That is one of those things 'about pixelart'.

Sometimes you can hide it when there's a busy BG or its inside a pixel. When its on the edges there's not much you can do cept maybe in this case another hair curl or a ribbon ;)
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 12 March 2015 at 4:23pm
you can always make your highilghts and shading clusters thicker than single pixel thick.  It's either be smarter with your shading clusters, take it out, or leave it (I'd only ever leave it if the banding is minimal, such as in your piece.) Sometimes banding is not really avoidable to depict what you want to.  But yes, generally, AA'ing 45 degree lines is bad pixeling if you can help it. 

For your hair highlights, why not keep the AA if you feel it adds to the style of the hair?  A little banding, if done intentionally is entirely ok.  Next time though, if you really want to avoid banding, i'd recommend having larger highlight clusters so you can avoid banding

come on, upload her to the gallery!  :>


Edited by Friend - 12 March 2015 at 4:25pm
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 7:18am
Thanks for clearing things up, Jalonso and Friend!

Nonetheless I do not want to use the excuse "this is on purpose" to explain bad pixeling. Avoiding bad pixel behaviours and keep on working on bad pixeling is what I should focus on this piece.

This is the new update. Does this way of highlighting work?


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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 10:00am
side of cheek and bottom of chin is over aa'ed, probably meaning theres a slight problem with the line art.  i showed how you can tweak the lines in the chin to not only use less aa (you want to use as little aa as possible), but also to smooth out the curve.

--------------------------
cyan, with the writing at the top:   Develop a sharper eye for how lines and clusters come together.  I thought how the thin strand of bright red hits the dark spot at the top of the crown looked a little harsh, so I tried to improve how the clusters in that area locked together.

red- banding (I want you to know that you can utilize all techniques in pixel art to sneak your way out of banding.  Changing the line art, AA, changing shading clusters, anything is fair game.

green- jagged lines that could be smoothed

magenta- things to avoid (often for you, it is single bright pixels)



animated gif showing changes





Edited by Friend - 13 March 2015 at 10:14am
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 12:09pm
Thanks a lot, Friend! You were a big of a help to get rid of all those mistakes! I took some time and tried to break down your marked areas.
I tried to solve almost everything and then compared to what you suggest in terms of fixes. Sometimes / quite often our changes differ a bit or more but that should be no deal.



Is there anything important on the hair highlights I did? Do they work out? If somebody can give me feedback about this I would be really happy :)


Edited by Lakelezz - 13 March 2015 at 12:09pm
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Quote dpixel Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 12:26pm
I think jalonsos hair edit would be more fitting as far as shadow consistency
hehe (ಠ_ಠ ) o_- :p
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 12:31pm
Well, I did a rough edit on your idea.



I took the hair of Jalonso's edit and pasted it roughly above her old hair.
The shadows and light feel way too 3D in my opinion.

Edit: Though were you talking about the general idea of shadow placing?


Edited by Lakelezz - 13 March 2015 at 12:35pm
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Quote dpixel Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Lakelezz


Edit: Though were you talking about the general idea of shadow placing?


Yes.  just to match the shadow on the legs, dress, and blouse.  I would think there would be a little more light on the top of the head than the edit tho.

Too 3D?  I think that may be the first time I heard that on here. 
hehe (ಠ_ಠ ) o_- :p
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 4:43pm
Well, to a certain level I want to stick to the original anime references. That means avoiding too much 3D :P



This a new attempt to display the highlights on the head!

Edit: I shaded the left back hair.


Edited by Lakelezz - 13 March 2015 at 4:55pm
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 5:07pm
the new shading in the hair looks fantastic, but doesnt match the style as much as your old hair, because now the hair appears to have much more detail than the rest of her
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 5:17pm
Hmmm, I do not think that it is too detailed because the hair is the only part of the references which is highlighted and shaded at the same time.
I would not know how to combine the old with the new otherwise :/


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Quote dpixel Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 6:33pm
The new hair looks great!
hehe (ಠ_ಠ ) o_- :p
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2015 at 7:07pm
I see what youre saying about the hair being the only shaded and highlighted part.  The thing is you're right, but if you pay close attention to the anime style of your reference, all parts of her have the same amount of depth....Her hair in the anime has just hints of shadow and specks of highlight, dominated mostly by a base red.  It's not really how youve drawn it in the new version, which is fine, but to my eye, I see clashing styles between your new hair and the rest of her.  It kinda looks like a wig because youve given it more depth than her head, thus looking like it's sitting on her head rather than her real hair.

idk, i like how you did the new hair, but I do feel it looks off with the rest of the style.  I think all you would have to change is make the shadows of her skin more pronounced.

Just my opinion though.  She is all yours


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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2015 at 4:45pm
I can understand what you mean. Nonetheless there is no clue in my mind how I could help this. Additionally my impression is the piece overall is fine.
I do not feel any style differences.

My pre-final edit:



I changed the eyes!

Here is my reference:



Any final suggestions :)?
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2015 at 5:40pm
Wow.. The eyes look beautiful and really well pixeled. In fact, I think the change also helped solidify the style. :]
Wonderful ^_^
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2015 at 7:37pm
I am glad you like it! :)
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 1:12pm
Just added to the gallery and see this in the description:
"Transparency is used as well, so it will be 15 colours on pixeljoint!"
Transparency is a color anywhere online.
The technicality is that its a color with a mask but its still a color :)
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 1:20pm
Well, that is of course true. It will always end up as a colour but it is not a part of my palette. That is why I wrote this down. I am going edit that :)

Thanks for adding it to the gallery, though!

Here is the link for everyone who is interested and stumbled upon this thread:

http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/93357.htm
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Lakelezz

...Thanks for adding it to the gallery, though!


for everyone who is interested and stumbled upon this thread:
Having a WIP thread and showing even the slightest effort is almost a guarantee it will be added. With the effort and work you put into it we should really have feature it, not just added
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by jalonso


With the effort and work you put into it we should really have feature it, not just added


Haha, when I start working on a piece I totally get into it :D
Sadly PixelJoint does not have a feature section
Except Weekly Showcase, I guess? Though that would be a time limited feature and is rather a user-voted section.


Edited by Lakelezz - 15 March 2015 at 1:41pm
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 3:47pm
Sometimes works are featured as news on the front page when an artist displays lots of hard work. Last I remember is Ashcrimson. That guy is awesome
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 3:53pm
Oh! You are right, Friend :)
I just found this http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixels/news.asp?cat=2294

Thanks for pointing out!

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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 15 March 2015 at 4:34pm
That's kinda different. The featured pixel artists are kind of more like an interview with highly experienced pixel artists and or pixel artists that offer something unique to the world of pixel art.

I'm talking about a news piece on the front page, like the weekly challenge and pixel news.

•~• can't wait to see your next piece
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2015 at 2:43am
Oh, I found another news entry about AshCrimson: http://www.pixeljoint.com/2014/04/16/4288/Forum_Highlights-_Tower_Shields.htm

Is that the right one?

My next piece is still not decided. I have three possibilities. Either I do a full scenery plus character piece, another anime character in the same fashion and style of Aoba Tsugumi, or a small tribute to Phantom Breaker Battle Grounds.
I will decide that by today - already started to work on 2 of those 3 anyway.


Edited by Lakelezz - 16 March 2015 at 2:44am
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 16 March 2015 at 7:02pm
Friend is correct we feature a news item on threads from time to time when the artist shows effort and the thread contains enough info that others can learn from it just by reviewing.
This thread almost had it all to feature but the breaking point is that the start of the thread was on another art than the last one that showed your progress and actually has enough tips, tricks and info for others. Its a little confusing because of that and featured threads should almost read like a tutorial.
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2015 at 10:34am
Oh, I see, Jalonso! I guess it cannot be helped :P

Well, I wanted to do something small outlined. So I decided to create a tribute for the game "Phantom Breaker Battle Grounds".
I had to restrict myself to keep the unique style to a certain degree. This piece is meant to look like a possible DLC, haha.

I could mainly find animated sprites which I did not want to normalize. There were a few upscaled normal sprites so I decided to downscale one of them.
Hopefully this not considered manipulating the original piece or stealing.

This is the source file - it is not my art: http://www.senpaigamer.com/sites/default/files/news/sony/2013/12/27-phantom-breaker-battle-grounds-5.png

Here is the downscaled version with grey background:


This is my first attempt on it:


There are quite some more references but all upscaled (I did not upscale them):


I might just link them, when they are too big. Too bad PJ does not have a spoiler-BB-feature.

There will be probably some more changes on the face to make it a bit more original but still close to the style.
Any suggestions, feedback, or tips :)?





Edited by Lakelezz - 17 March 2015 at 10:56am
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 18 March 2015 at 2:14pm
Small update:


I reduced the colours, changed some shapes, replaced some pixels, added some minor details.

Any suggestions in terms of what I mentioned in my last post?


Edited by Lakelezz - 18 March 2015 at 2:15pm
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2015 at 8:59am
New update!



I did multiple minor updates. Any suggestions? Please keep in mind that this style relates to the one mentioned two posts above.



Edited by Lakelezz - 21 March 2015 at 9:28am
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2015 at 3:06pm
is this an original character?  I love it so far.  And youve captured the style down to a fine art xD 

One thing that bugs me is the right hand holding the staff and the left leg poking through the dress.  The arm I'm not sure what's going on, but I think youre trying to depict her holding it back, kind of like how you throw a javelin?

The right leg, I'm just not sure what's going on either.  it looks like her leg is sticking out of a hole in the dress, rather than simply sticking out under it
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Quote Lakelezz Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2015 at 4:52pm
Thanks for your feedback, Friend!

Yes, this is an original character created by me.

I agree on all what you mentioned :) The thing with her leg was quite experimental. My intention was to make it look more interesting but did not work out that visually appealing, haha.

Oh and the "javelin" is supposed to be a staff/wand but after you mentioned... yes, could be easily misread.

So here goes my fix with all the points you mentioned:



The left side features the old handling of the... staff.

Edit: Corrected the shading of the staff.


Edited by Lakelezz - 21 March 2015 at 4:55pm
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Quote Friend Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2015 at 5:46pm
awesome improvement.  The arm and leg is now so much more readable.

Now I think the pose could be given a small boost of excitement.  I think if you take the leg closest to the staff and have her step back more with it (or bring the other leg more forward), it would emphasize more her pose.

This brings me to another suggestion.  In your references above, all of the arms and legs are shaded one brighter than the other to show which is closer.  Try darkening the arm holding the staff in the same way, and try darkening (bringing back) the leg by the staff.

Basically what I mean is try shading the leg by the staff darker to pull it back in space, and try the same with the arm holding the staff.


Edited by Friend - 21 March 2015 at 5:49pm
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