Pixel Joint Forum: tConveo a .GIF without color loss?

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BlingShyne2
Midshipman

Joined: 21 June 2007
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Posts: 47

Topic: tConveo a .GIF without color loss?
Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:26pm

So about a week ago I drew this goofy little cactus guy, and it didn't get accepted into the gallery.

So I was going to completley revise it and turn it into an animation with a few little neat ideas. So anyways, I did it all in .PNG format, and when I had the first slide down I went to change it to .GIF and it went from this:

To this:

Yes, yes, it's a terrible picture and idea but it's just something little I wanted to put together, anyways, is there anyway to stop this? Or any suggestions on fixing it?

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Pixel_Outlaw
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Joined: 01 September 2005
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Posts: 3829

Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:47pm

Well not really. Conversion from file to file is not always possible. Consider saving a .bmp to a jpeg then saving the jpeg back to the bitmap. You get the jpeg saved exactly as it is into a bitmap form. File types are structured in a way that data can be stored within parameters. One file type may have more restrictive parameters so data must be cut out or omitted to convert. Converting from a very limited file type like jpeg to a very open file type such as .bmp is flawless or close. However you can't go from a complex data type to a simple data type without omitting or changing data.

Image file types take a wide range of parameters and conversion from type to type may cause chunks of data to be lost. These include color depth, palette, and structure.

This is a simple overview

from bmp jpeg bmp

bmp ( has all data)-> jpeg (color data lost and image converted to small chunks stored in the table section of the file, some of the initial data cut out)->bmp (full conversion of last file)

Edited by Pixel_Outlaw - 03 July 2007 at 5:51pm

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Monkey 'o Doom
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Joined: 24 September 2005
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Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:52pm

Photoshop does good with converting file types. Irfanview is a good free alternative and it gets palettes right when converting to gif, but sometimes it will dither anyways so you need to open the new gif image and then copy-paste from the png. Do a google search to find irfanview.

RPG is numberwang.

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jalonso
Admiral
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Joined: 29 November 2022
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Posts: 13537

Posted: 03 July 2007 at 7:28pm

In the future always work in RGB as gifs. Only use .png when really needed.

png= pixels no good
gif= great in fidelity

PJs FAQ <•> Sticky Reads

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Hatch
Admiral
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Joined: 05 August 2015
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Posts: 1387

Posted: 03 July 2007 at 10:01pm

Your png, my gif, your gif. Converted with Photoshop. It's far from perfect, but the color fidelity is way better. Feel free to use it if you want.

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Monkey 'o Doom
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Joined: 24 September 2005
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Posts: 2994

Posted: 04 July 2007 at 9:34am

The only way photoshop's gif conversion could be distant from perfect is if your browser darkens PNGs. In firefox, the first two images are perfectly identical--a printscreen shows that the two are displayed with equal RGB values and everything.

Don't doubt the photoshop, man.

RPG is numberwang.

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Hatch
Admiral
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Joined: 05 August 2015
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Posts: 1387

Posted: 04 July 2007 at 9:58am

Yup, you're right. In Firefox they're identical.

*sigh* Maybe it IS time to ditch my beloved Safari...

Edited by Hatch - 04 July 2007 at 9:59am

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Hapiel
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Joined: 30 June 2023
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Posts: 3266

Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:14am

Originally posted by jalonso

In the future always work in RGB as gifs. Only use .png when really needed.

png= pixels no good
gif= great in fidelity

whats wrong with PNG???

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Blueberry_pie
Rear Admiral

Joined: 24 July 2015
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Posts: 2176

Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:31am

It darkens the colours sometimes. Just a wee bit, but still.
When it comes to pixel art, GIF files are usually also smaller than PNG files. GIF is palette-based, just like pixel art. I think PNG's compression method is best suited for images containing large areas of one solid colour.

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Hapiel
Rear Admiral

Joined: 30 June 2023
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Posts: 3266

Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:45am

Originally posted by Blueberry_pie

It darkens the colours sometimes. Just a wee bit, but still.
When it comes to pixel art, GIF files are usually also smaller than PNG files. GIF is palette-based, just like pixel art. I think PNG's compression method is best suited for images containing large areas of one solid colour.

weird... Here they show an example btw, and the PNG is smaller than the gif..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixelart

Originally posted by Wikipedia PNG page

PNG supports palette-based (palettes of 24-bit RGB colors) or greyscale or RGB images.

Edited by Lollige - 05 July 2007 at 2:47am

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Blueberry_pie
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Joined: 24 July 2015
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Posts: 2176

Posted: 05 July 2007 at 3:30am

The palette-based one they're talking about is probably PNG-8 which, like GIF, can only use up to 256 colours. I did some playing around in Photoshop and found that PNG-8 is always about 1kb bigger than the same image in GIF format. Methinks their compression techniques are pretty much the same, and that PNG-8 only has a slightly larger header.

So yeah, I think the only real difference between GIF and PNG-8 is that one supports animation and the other doesn't. I'm not sure if there's also colour darkening in PNG-8 or if it only happens with PNG-24 images.

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Monkey 'o Doom
Commander

Joined: 24 September 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2994

Posted: 05 July 2007 at 8:57am

That's funny, pie. Wikipedia and most other places agree that PNGs should be smaller than gifs--look here and here.

BUT when I tried saving a WIP space ship I had for an old project as GIF, PNG-8, and PNG-24, look what sizes photoshop generated!

So I downloaded a Irfanview plugin, PNGOUT, and used it on the image. It ended up being 391 bytes with all settings at "Auto." So PNG-8 is smaller than GIF in this case, though not by too much.

RPG is numberwang.

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BlingShyne2
Midshipman

Joined: 21 June 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 47

Posted: 06 July 2007 at 12:42pm

In the original I had the background dithered from dark to light with 3 different gray's and learned that .gif's don't like that...

So anyways, I made all the frames in .bmp, took out all of the dithering in the background and made it a solid color (which I kind of dislike but it's all I could do) then when I put the frames together (in animation shop) and saved it to an animated .gif if turned out fine with no pixelation and no effects on my colors.

But anyways, I'm rather happy with how it turned out, I'm going to tweak a few frames, feel free to comment and critique!

Also, props to Metaru for the link to the free AnimationShop3, that was awesome, that program got lost when my harddrive fried a couple months ago.

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Author	Message
BlingShyne2 Midshipman Joined: 21 June 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 47	Topic: tConveo a .GIF without color loss? Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:26pm
	So about a week ago I drew this goofy little cactus guy, and it didn't get accepted into the gallery. So I was going to completley revise it and turn it into an animation with a few little neat ideas. So anyways, I did it all in .PNG format, and when I had the first slide down I went to change it to .GIF and it went from this: To this: Yes, yes, it's a terrible picture and idea but it's just something little I wanted to put together, anyways, is there anyway to stop this? Or any suggestions on fixing it?
	IP Logged

Pixel_Outlaw Commander Joined: 01 September 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3829	Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:47pm
	Well not really. Conversion from file to file is not always possible. Consider saving a .bmp to a jpeg then saving the jpeg back to the bitmap. You get the jpeg saved exactly as it is into a bitmap form. File types are structured in a way that data can be stored within parameters. One file type may have more restrictive parameters so data must be cut out or omitted to convert. Converting from a very limited file type like jpeg to a very open file type such as .bmp is flawless or close. However you can't go from a complex data type to a simple data type without omitting or changing data. Image file types take a wide range of parameters and conversion from type to type may cause chunks of data to be lost. These include color depth, palette, and structure. This is a simple overview from bmp jpeg bmp bmp ( has all data)-> jpeg (color data lost and image converted to small chunks stored in the table section of the file, some of the initial data cut out)->bmp (full conversion of last file) Edited by Pixel_Outlaw - 03 July 2007 at 5:51pm
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Monkey 'o Doom Commander Joined: 24 September 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2994	Posted: 03 July 2007 at 5:52pm
	Photoshop does good with converting file types. Irfanview is a good free alternative and it gets palettes right when converting to gif, but sometimes it will dither anyways so you need to open the new gif image and then copy-paste from the png. Do a google search to find irfanview.
	RPG is numberwang.
	IP Logged

jalonso Admiral Joined: 29 November 2022 Online Status: Offline Posts: 13537	Posted: 03 July 2007 at 7:28pm
	In the future always work in RGB as gifs. Only use .png when really needed. png= pixels no good gif= great in fidelity
	PJs FAQ <•> Sticky Reads
	IP Logged

Hatch Admiral Joined: 05 August 2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1387	Posted: 03 July 2007 at 10:01pm
	Your png, my gif, your gif. Converted with Photoshop. It's far from perfect, but the color fidelity is way better. Feel free to use it if you want.
	IP Logged

Monkey 'o Doom Commander Joined: 24 September 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2994	Posted: 04 July 2007 at 9:34am
	The only way photoshop's gif conversion could be distant from perfect is if your browser darkens PNGs. In firefox, the first two images are perfectly identical--a printscreen shows that the two are displayed with equal RGB values and everything. Don't doubt the photoshop, man.
	RPG is numberwang.
	IP Logged

Hatch Admiral Joined: 05 August 2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1387	Posted: 04 July 2007 at 9:58am
	Yup, you're right. In Firefox they're identical. sigh Maybe it IS time to ditch my beloved Safari... Edited by Hatch - 04 July 2007 at 9:59am
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Hapiel Rear Admiral Joined: 30 June 2023 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3266	Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:14am
	*Originally posted by jalonso* In the future always work in RGB as gifs. Only use .png when really needed. png= pixels no good gif= great in fidelity whats wrong with PNG???
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Blueberry_pie Rear Admiral Joined: 24 July 2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2176	Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:31am
	It darkens the colours sometimes. Just a wee bit, but still. When it comes to pixel art, GIF files are usually also smaller than PNG files. GIF is palette-based, just like pixel art. I think PNG's compression method is best suited for images containing large areas of one solid colour.
	IP Logged

Hapiel Rear Admiral Joined: 30 June 2023 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3266	Posted: 05 July 2007 at 2:45am
	*Originally posted by Blueberry_pie* It darkens the colours sometimes. Just a wee bit, but still. When it comes to pixel art, GIF files are usually also smaller than PNG files. GIF is palette-based, just like pixel art. I think PNG's compression method is best suited for images containing large areas of one solid colour. weird... Here they show an example btw, and the PNG is smaller than the gif.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixelart *Originally posted by Wikipedia PNG page* PNG supports palette-based (palettes of 24-bit RGB colors) or greyscale or RGB images. Edited by Lollige - 05 July 2007 at 2:47am
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Blueberry_pie Rear Admiral Joined: 24 July 2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2176	Posted: 05 July 2007 at 3:30am
	The palette-based one they're talking about is probably PNG-8 which, like GIF, can only use up to 256 colours. I did some playing around in Photoshop and found that PNG-8 is always about 1kb bigger than the same image in GIF format. Methinks their compression techniques are pretty much the same, and that PNG-8 only has a slightly larger header. So yeah, I think the only real difference between GIF and PNG-8 is that one supports animation and the other doesn't. I'm not sure if there's also colour darkening in PNG-8 or if it only happens with PNG-24 images.
	IP Logged

Monkey 'o Doom Commander Joined: 24 September 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2994	Posted: 05 July 2007 at 8:57am
	That's funny, pie. Wikipedia and most other places agree that PNGs should be smaller than gifs--look here and here. BUT when I tried saving a WIP space ship I had for an old project as GIF, PNG-8, and PNG-24, look what sizes photoshop generated! So I downloaded a Irfanview plugin, PNGOUT, and used it on the image. It ended up being 391 bytes with all settings at "Auto." So PNG-8 is smaller than GIF in this case, though not by too much.
	RPG is numberwang.
	IP Logged

BlingShyne2 Midshipman Joined: 21 June 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 47	Posted: 06 July 2007 at 12:42pm
	In the original I had the background dithered from dark to light with 3 different gray's and learned that .gif's don't like that... So anyways, I made all the frames in .bmp, took out all of the dithering in the background and made it a solid color (which I kind of dislike but it's all I could do) then when I put the frames together (in animation shop) and saved it to an animated .gif if turned out fine with no pixelation and no effects on my colors. But anyways, I'm rather happy with how it turned out, I'm going to tweak a few frames, feel free to comment and critique! Also, props to Metaru for the link to the free AnimationShop3, that was awesome, that program got lost when my harddrive fried a couple months ago.
	IP Logged