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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Topic: Discuss
    Posted: 21 July 2007 at 12:31pm
evincarofautumn submitted this pixel this week, also shown on A below.
I sent it back because the description as he wrote it was confusing and in my mind the transparency excercise wasn't even required. I will admit that this is a topic worthy of discussion since he makes a great point with this comment "...This must be pixel art, since I placed every pixel in the image.  How do a few extra bits in the alpha channel make any difference as to whether it's genuine pixel art?' In general I must agree, however it is a grey area for me. It would be great to get some feedback about this from all members in order to help in adding pixels to the gallery and even for all to learn from. anyhoo...
The reason I have to in the end send transparancies back of any sort (those already in the gallery may have to be re-looked at depending on how this convo goes).
In B I have shown the pixels which evincarofautumn uses as transparency. Real hand drawn pixels but with alpha channel transparency. He only uses 2 colors for this and all in the AA. Problem #1 is that he missed the nose and has 2 uncontrolled pixels (NPA).
I took one of my pixels C and made some (scrappy) AA as solid pixels D using 12 colors from the same palette. This I made 50% transparent and added to E. I still see no essential problem with this, since my total is 33 colors of which I had total control and placed 'one pixel at a time'.
The downside from my point of view is that this opens a can of worms. Take another pixel of mine F which uses 48 colors. In G I use 10 colors placed 'one pixel at a time' and make those 50% transparent. In H it is overlaid and unlike B or E, the color count has 74 colors I neither planned nor chose myself. Almost 2/3 is not mine , that means NPA. I can very easily remake H using my 48 colors (maybe add 1 or 2 more) and so transparencies are actually a lazy copout. Pixelart requires patience above all else (see Oekaki) It just doesn't seem right for Pixeljoint.
Yes, in commercial projects, shortcuts like these are accepted but only because finance rules the day. I think Pixeljoint should remain pure not because we are not willing to change and evolve but because by keeping it true/
simple* we learn, improve and are the better for it. Even if you end up in a commercial setting you have the fundamentals as a base. Its like subjects in school you never use irl but need to understand the basics of.

discuss...





*true/simple= GIF or PNG painted pixel by pixel (within reason) - Sedgemonkey
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Mykola
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Quote Mykola Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2007 at 1:21pm
I think every beginner must pay EXTRA attention to the last paragraph. By learning to pixel in the most basic techniques, you'll become much more skilled in doing hybrid PA as well.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2007 at 4:13pm
Thank you for your consideration of this piece; I hope to resolve this issue as quickly as possible. 

As you mention at the beginning of your post, I am indeed of the opinion that pixel art remains genuine pixel art no matter how many channels you might use.  I always work on one layer, because I am a fundamentalist in that respect.  I do strongly believe, however, in the use of per-pixel alpha because it allows for versatile pixel art with a wide range of applications.

All those reading this topic, please share your opinions!  I am very excited to hear what the members of PixelJoint have to say about this possibly controversial issue.

Cheers,
    Jon "evincarofautumn" Purdy.

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Metaru
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Quote Metaru Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2007 at 9:28pm
WE HAVE TO FIGTH FOR THE HONOR OF OUR SACRED PIXELS!



this's a discussion that appears in almost every art comunity i know. the fact of how much do we have to let the computer affect the result of our project. photographs discuss about how much digital photomanipulation could be allowed in the post-production of an image, painters versus digital painters, 3D Artist and and Auto-Enhacement Software...

as Jal said: "Yes, in commercial projects, shortcuts like these are accepted but only because finance rules the day", its money. you can do it because your employer only deals with the final result and you're a bit short in time. but its a complete diferent situation if you post them here (for example). there's no big merit in using transparency layers to shade, since there's people who actually pick every color carefully based on their exp and knowledge. also, you'll soon or later will get used to it, and live in shame. = make a smiley sad

---
~"a pixel artist is often recongnized for its skills to use the minimun to produce the maximun"

I don't remember where i read that statement, but i think its clearly accurate for this situation.

on a side note, i'm not pretenting to despise it evin's piece under any circumstance.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:03am
"there's no big merit in using transparency layers to shade"

I agree with that sentiment.  In this piece, however, I used transparency to antialias so that the pixel art would appear with smooth outlines on a background of any colour (possibly excluding black ) as opposed to the standard method of antialiasing using colours from your background.  I thus didn't create the kind of palette explosion that jalonso mentioned, adding only two colours (incl. alpha) on the same layer as the rest of the piece.

Well, my background just so happens to have an alpha of zero, so I figured that I would blend in the alpha channel to make the piece display well on any background, since I couldn't decide on an appropriate background colour anyway.  Since I like antialiasing (and, incidentally, vector art) very much, this makes sense to me.

"there's people who actually pick every color carefully based on their exp and knowledge"

Who's to say that I didn't choose my palette carefully based on my knowledge and style of pixel art?  Every pixel artist, from the novice to someone as well-versed as, say, Fool, produces pixel art based on their knowledge and skill set.

Whether a palette includes colours that "break the fourth wall" by interacting with their background seems to me a non-issue.

I appreciate your comments very much, and, yes, your criticisms.  We're all trying to learn here. 

Cheers,
    Jon "evincarofautumn" Purdy

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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2007 at 6:54pm
Please notice that I agree how you went about it since its all in the outside. My concern is the can of worms it opens. If someone says 'you allow it on the outside why not the inside, its one pixel at a time?' Its just muddy, did this piece actually need it even?
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Pixel_Outlaw
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Quote Pixel_Outlaw Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2007 at 9:11pm

Transparency is fine. Ironic that some mods reject many pieces without transparency, then say that partial transparency is not allowed. One can't AA for a variable background, partial transparency solves this problem.

However if you say only full transparency is allowed then people need to stop bitching about not AAing sprites. Transparency at any level is a way to accommodate a variable background. Not everyone has the same configuration with forum themes. Anyone that disagrees with me can go stick their minuscule weener in a pencil sharpener.  Even if you aren't making a "sprite" you still have to have your image sit on top of the forum background. Alpha channels are for the artist who wants to make sure that the Luminescence value is maintained against a variable backdrop. As far as "Pixel Purity" goes, old school pixel artists have been using alpha values for a relatively long time. The alpha channel concept dates back to the 70's. It's nothing newfangled, it was there in the early pixel art days. It was pretty taxing on most processors however.

Edited by Pixel_Outlaw - 22 July 2007 at 9:23pm
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Di0xygen
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Quote Di0xygen Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:17pm
Personally i think that alpha channel do look like crap when Outer aaing a sprite, but if can manage to make it look good then i'm cool with this.

Hybrid pixelart is completely fine in my opinion as long as every pixel is still placed carefully.

using filters, gradient tools, auto antialiasing and stuff like that is a big no-no but using alpha channel to decide wich color to use in certain situation.. for instance you are making a iso peice and you wanna have translucide water well whats better than alpha channel..

I do still think theres tons of more artistic ways to blend in colors and to create transparent effect, but some people are looking for a more realist touch and less artistic and goes for hybridness.

I take for example Jalonso cd cover with the burning city. I find it a very nice peice even tho its a hybrid the pixel parts of the image are soo strong and soo well done that the hybridness simlpy make it 10 times cooler and more attractive.

Finally i think alpha channels are a bit like automatic color tweaking.. we all use it from time to time when we screwd up contrasts or luminosity or something else and we want to globally fix it in a jiffy, then alpha channel is pretty much a color tweak using a secondary color on a complete or partial zone of the image.. what's the harm, i could simply grab a magic wand select a part and color tweak it anyway. It simply allow more control and more possibility.
+ the fact that it makes Outer Aa on every kind of background.


c==3
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Krakatoa
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Quote Krakatoa Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:13pm
I've always been under the impression that pixel art cannot use transparency no matter what. If MSPaint doesn't have the tool, then it shouldn't be used. That's how I figure it.

using filters, gradient tools, auto antialiasing and stuff like that is a big no-no


Agreed. Also, using a transparency tool is not considered pixel art by me because it is a massive help, and it isn't...

manual, pixel-level editing of an image (without the application of image filters, automatic anti-aliasing or special rendering modes), often at close magnification. In this form, it is commonly said that "each pixel was placed carefully" to achieve a desired result.


pixel art should only be created from tools that place individual pixels (such as the 'pencil' tool), and that pixel artists should avoid all other tools


Pwnt.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:16am
I don't think this conversation is staying on-topic.  The pictures that jalonso posted mention the use of transparency to antialias on an image through the use of layers, which, for the final piece, are merged down to create different colours on the lower layers.  In my piece, I used partial transparency on the same layer as the rest of my work to create a smooth transition between the opaque pixels and the transparent background.  It did not have any effect on the number of colours in my palette, and also didn't result from the use of any special filters; all of my work was using the GIMP's pencil tool and its opacity (alpha) setting.  Hence all of the pixels in the resulting image (and, yes, all of their alpha data) were placed by me, by hand.

The animosity toward alpha channels in pixel art, to me, seems ridiculous, since pixel joint has neither explicitly allowed nor denied the use of such tools.  Hence it seems that in this thread I must present an ultimatum:

Pixel Joint, make a decision.  Either allow or disallow the use of partially transparent pixels in submitted works.  Just make up your mind!


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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:40am
Ultimatum?, now, now.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2007 at 4:25pm
Well, this is getting ridiculous.  We should come to some kind of consensus, otherwise this thread is useless.
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Monkey 'o Doom
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Quote Monkey 'o Doom Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2007 at 6:24pm
evin, I think the Ents would have a word or two to say to you along the lines of "Let's not be hasty," if they were here. But I'm glad this issue has finally come around as something to be seriously discussed.
 
In response to your previous post, I can't disagree with that sentiment as long as the image is on a solid background. But move it onto another image, and every semitransparent color could be displayed with unique RGB values, creating a huge displayed color count, massively higher than that of the image on a solid background.
 
But to completely bar a fourth of the data a pixel can have from use in pixel art seems like it's limiting too much. Is it enough to influence the color of a pixel by 99% by giving it that much opacity, and letting the other 1% of its color be determined by its background, or is it only permissible to define a color as completely artist-defined or completely unknowable to the artist? Is it really that much of a leap to move from a binary switch to a slider on a continuum for alpha?

RPG is numberwang.
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Quote Pixel_Outlaw Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2007 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Monkey 'o Doom

But to completely bar a fourth of the data a pixel can have from use in pixel art seems like it's limiting too much. Is it enough to influence the color of a pixel by 99% by giving it that much opacity, and letting the other 1% of its color be determined by its background, or is it only permissible to define a color as completely artist-defined or completely unknowable to the artist? Is it really that much of a leap to move from a binary switch to a slider on a continuum for alpha?
 
Obviously a person who has experience with background colors/patterns as variables.
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PixelSnader
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Quote PixelSnader Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2007 at 7:33pm
transparencies should be allowed as long as they are afterwards cleaned up and palette optimized.
and gif transparency ftw.

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Metaru
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Quote Metaru Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2007 at 12:02am
AA with a partial transparency is like the story of the guy who wants to be fine with everyone. Do you really need such thing? is you fox being displayed is so many places that you need its AA fit in all of them?

my point is, you placed the pixel carefully in its place, surely. but the color it will take will not be your decision, and therefore not your control. so you'll decide it will be the color it needs to be, technically. and as far as i've learned, pixelart is suposed to be based on control of each pixel, both position and color of every pixel in order to achieve a result. or else we will start speaking in other terms (Oekaki).

it may sound a bit Nazi-ish, but partial transparencies, for me, are more Hybrid than pixel art itself. or its opaque or it is transparent.

slaudos
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Quote PixelSnader Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2007 at 5:28am
the funny thing is that a lot of people use alpha transparency in photoshop, then save as .gif and thereby creating lots of stray looking pixels

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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2007 at 9:22am
"is you fox being displayed is so many places that you need its AA fit in all of them?"--Metaru

Yes.  It is.  PixelJoint has a number of different colour schemes, as anyone who spends time here must well know, and I'm sure that every theme is in use by at least one member of the community at any given time.  I submitted this piece on DeviantART, as well.  The point is that the piece contains that little bit of extra information that makes it that much more versatile.

"but the color it will take will not be your decision, and therefore not your control." --Metaru

I disagree.  I think that an important point is that one should use alpha blending very, very carefully, choosing appropriate colours and levels of alpha to suit the needs of the piece.  I must say that, like any other tool, it could be abused*.  My idea is that non-binary transparency should be treated on PixelJoint as any other aspect of submitted pixel art:  with a modicum of scrutiny on the part of the moderators.

* "a lot of people use alpha transparency in photoshop, then save as .gif and thereby creating lots of stray looking pixels" --snader

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. 

Cheers,
    Jon "evincarofautumn" Purdy

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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2007 at 2:24pm
Man I totally agree with you 1,000,000%, in the case of your pixel. Its the abuse that's a concern. Who will police it, who will oversee it. More importantly who can see it when not used on the exterior as you have. I'm still not convinced about this matter...
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2007 at 2:21pm
Thank you!

Is there not a simple way to process incoming PNGs such that they are displayed on the classic checked background when they contain more than one bit of per-pixel alpha?  I don't know how your database is set up, so I can't say whether this would be feasible.  It shouldn't have too much overhead to lend extra processing (at display time) to such a small number of images.
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Monkey 'o Doom
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Quote Monkey 'o Doom Replybullet Posted: 30 July 2007 at 3:09pm
Wouldn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having alpha transparency, though?

RPG is numberwang.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2007 at 3:06pm
Ha!  I guess you're right.    Still, not many people are going to take advantage of such a feature even if it is allowed, so the mods aren't going to have too much to worry about.  The members of this community tends to police the place pretty well.

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Metaru
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Quote Metaru Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2007 at 8:30pm
also, no one would ever noticed the alpha channel if you didn't mentioned it in the description. silly.
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evincarofautumn
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Quote evincarofautumn Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2007 at 9:24am
 

Assuming, of course, that I did a good job.
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Quote ShoneGold Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2007 at 9:02am
jalonso may I ask if PJs is any closer to making a decision/ruling on the acceptance of the use of transparencies in PixelArt?

As PixelArt Gallery Director at deviantArt I am now faced with an ever growing problem of transparencies being used in massive and in my opinion unnecessary proportions.

I would like to keep as close to the philosophy of PJ with regard PixelArt at deviantArt.

I am prepared to keep PixelArt as free from transparencies as possible at dA but I need to know how PJ feels about this....

As was mentioned above, can there be dispensation for commercial applications but a more conservative attitude toward their use on purely recreation artwork?

Is it possible for some decision to be made with regards this ever growing problem?
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2007 at 12:53pm
Decision is final and set!

Precisely because things get out of hand easily. It is best to be overly hard on any technique. It is very difficult to explain an example where it may be reasonable to use a transparency as opposed to another example where its obvious it should'nt be used. Seems harsh and unfair but in the end since we focus on pixelart alone its for the best. Mods like to pixel too and not have PM therapy sessions.

I do not ever allow them in regardless of who made it and strongly feel any that do and are already in the gallery should be removed without prejudice.


Edited by jalonso - 03 November 2007 at 1:23pm
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Quote AdamPlays Replybullet Posted: 05 November 2007 at 4:39pm

It's kind of like learning Algebra 101 and not being allowed to use a calculator on the final test.  If you use the calculator you don't solve the problem yourself.  Instead you find a quick and easy shortcut which undermines the whole point of the course.  You don't learn long division with a calculator, you need the old pad and paper. 

It's the same here.  The Pixeljoint gallery is like your final exam (the gallery) for Pixelling 101.  Sure you can take shortcuts outside of the test, but if you use it for the gallery then you are simply undermining the lessons of pixel art. 
And now for something completely different...
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