WIP (Work In Progress)
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NancyGold
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Topic: Isometric Base WIP
    Posted: 17 August 2022 at 4:22am
Any idea how to improve it?
I know the pose is not overly exciting, but that is because it is multipurpose.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2022 at 2:55pm
Still can't decide. Are big tits a good idea?
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2022 at 5:36am
Is that okay for PG-13?
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Quote Maye Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2022 at 8:43am
PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. These films may contain sex references, up to four uses of explicit language, drug innuendo, strong crude/suggestive humor, mature themes, moderately long horror moments and/or moderate action violence.

Don't include nudity.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2022 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Maye

PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. These films may contain sex references, up to four uses of explicit language, drug innuendo, strong crude/suggestive humor, mature themes, moderately long horror moments and/or moderate action violence.

Don't include nudity.


1. The issue is that video games are interactive media, compared to a film reel, which follows some deterministic script. In other words, nobody forces player to undress the characters. Same way, in games with user created content, somebody may introduce sex references, independently from the game designer.
2. In case of low resolution pixel-art, there is a degree of free interpretation and ambiguity, due to the condensed nature of the media. Say with sprite the eye and cheek pixels are merged together, so it is up to the viewer to interpret them. The age of the character can't be determined either from the sprite alone.


Anyway, pixeling the back view now:


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Quote Greycloak Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2022 at 2:32am
The front-facing pose is certainly a bit awkward, looks rather stiff like she's hunched forward. Her right arm especially seems to be positioned awkwardly. The posture problems seem to be fixed/hidden in the clothed version.

For the back-facing pose it seems she's hunched over to her right side. I think this is because her shoulders form a horizontal line, whereas this is isometric perspective so they should be at a diagonal line like her feet are.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2022 at 5:20am
Originally posted by Greycloak

The front-facing pose is certainly a bit awkward, looks rather stiff like she's hunched forward. Her right arm especially seems to be positioned awkwardly. The posture problems seem to be fixed/hidden in the clothed version.
Yeah. The right arm is terrible, need to find a way to draw it better, which is tricky, due to the angle used.

I don't see what you mean by "hunched forward", like the shoulders and the pelvis are centered at same point in XY plane, but the spine is a bit curved forward. Right leg is supposed to be moved a bit forward, while the left leg is held a bit back. Arms follow suit, but a bit differently.

Originally posted by Greycloak

For the back-facing pose it seems she's hunched over to her right side. I think this is because her shoulders form a horizontal line, whereas this is isometric perspective so they should be at a diagonal line like her feet are.

The back one was kinda rough. I think I fixed the shoulders afterwards, and the arm was broken in similar way to the front one. Placing feet and shoulders at the same line makes the sprite look even stiffer. Like some T-pose.


The pose is indeed really awkward, but, as I said, it serves a wide range of purposes, including riding the mounts. One thing I noticed is the more realistic your art direction is, the more awkward it looks. For example, Endless Online has anatomically incorrect badly drawn cartoon characters, but they look natural, cuz one doesn't expect from them to look human.


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Quote Greycloak Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2022 at 5:11pm
The stomach having highlights on it and being pushed forward is what I meant about her being hunched in the forward-facing art.

And yes for small-scale pixel art I wouldn't worry too much about small details like muscle tone and individual fingers, because it often just can't be represented correctly. Hence why a lot of games go for a more stylistic approach - and it helps make animations easier.

I believe Endless Online mostly just tried to copy Dark Ages' (Kru Interactive) style, and yeah the proportions are a bit off but they still don't look horrible due to the stylization. The more "realistic" isometric games use 3D models converted to sprite sheets for their artwork, like Diablo and Baldur's Gate.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2022 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Greycloak

The more "realistic" isometric games use 3D models converted to sprite sheets for their artwork, like Diablo and Baldur's Gate.

These renders were super messy. More polished games, like Warcraft 2, had artists convert 3d renders to pixelart. The leaked WC2 alpha version still has the original 3d renders, instead of proper art.

On the other hand Warwind and Blood & Magic games had artists start directly from pixelart, so the sprites are not geometrically correct.

And Dark Ages graphics is not really pixelart. More like "index art", and it is competently done. But Endless Online uses pixelart for some reason, even if the artists weren't skilled to do it.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2022 at 3:32pm
Did side view. It is not required for my game, but useful for reference, while doing animations.



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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 21 August 2022 at 2:30pm
Reversed sprite came to be a bit short which was exposed by the rotation gif.

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2022 at 2:55pm
Animating it.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2022 at 2:07pm
Ok. When it came to movement and mounting the sprite on top of a horse, such arm position began looking really silly. And some two handed weapons will require a rather straight.
Of course I can draw a different arm sprite for the movement anim, but that will require drawing a version for each clothes type, which is a nightmare to produce, especially if I want to allow player modding the game. And I also want to port game to a Windows 95 era hardware, maybe Playstation 1, and these systems have memory limits, so constructing a sprite from parts greatly saves memory. Of course I can also use one of the pixel art rotation algorithm to do that on fly, but it is tricky. Moreover, auto-rotating the stuff looks okay only with specific poses, so I settled with a neutral arm position.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2022 at 7:13am
For the back movement I coudn't get the funky torso movement to work, so it is more boring


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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 05 September 2022 at 3:28pm
9000 edits later.


I'm sure it sill has a lot more errors, because producing sprites without a 3d model is really difficult. I.e. it took me some time to notice that the right arm will be really visible from behind.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2022 at 7:52am
It indeed has a ton of errors, like the waist being too fat, even for my 1/2 chibi style. Doing the male base now.

Background is not mine but some royalty free clipart I bought

As a test I redid my old black metal knight into this base:

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2022 at 1:27pm
Dunno if one can fit more details, and if such a base is good in general
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2022 at 2:07pm
Still fixing the errors, both anatomy, pose and outline.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2022 at 12:00am
There was huge pose issue, which I somehow managed to miss and which got apparent only when I did the 3d calculations. The base was leaning forward like a monkey, instead of standing upright like a human being. I'm terrible at measuring things by eye
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2022 at 8:06am
I can't tell whether it's an intentional part of the pose or a mistake, but the angle on the character seems to be closer to a full back view rather than a partial rotation. I don't feel like I'm looking at an isometric sprite. I think your earlier female sprite was more successful in this regard.

The head in the latest edit seems to be leaning to one side, away from the viewer. The neck has also looked consistently rather short to me, including in the front view and the female sprites. In the front sprites, the head seems to be meaning towards the viewer instead.

The torso looks rather long. Generally, the crotch is about halfway up, but on this sprite, it's well below that.

For what it's worth, I think you might be overworking these bases, and in all that detail, you're losing sight of the anatomy and basic forms. The details aren't going to matter once the sprites are clothed, and even skimpy clothing will affect the details enough that you probably don't be using most of these pixels verbatim xP
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by eishiya

I can't tell whether it's an intentional part of the pose or a mistake, but the angle on the character seems to be closer to a full back view rather than a partial rotation. I don't feel like I'm looking at an isometric sprite. I think your earlier female sprite was more successful in this regard.

The left shoulder can indeed be moved a pixel down, so it will be /-looking instead of _-looking. The pose is the same for both male and female sprites. The female 180-turn sprite is still invalid, because it is forward-leaning, while the 0-degree version has torso tad back-leaning (that is intentional to make pose a bit more "edgy"). Thee eft hand being closer to right L-angle, while the right hand being more straight, and moved a bit back, which in fact requires the right shoulder being moved a bit back, therefore it gets placed on the same H-line with the left arm shoulder, which gives the effect of it facing the camera. Yet the legs are still on the 2:1  /-line:

And that is stylistically not a good thing, since it looks like a T-pose
But I don't really see how to improve it, while keeping the base frame general/neutral enough.

It is intended to be catch-them-all pose, neutral enough so the character will clearly show all manner of clothes, and then look okayish unarmed, or holding one handed weapon plus shield, or no shield, two weapons, or all kinds of two handed weapons, from swords to staves and scythes, while at the same time merging nicely with animations. Same way my attack animation looks okay for spellcasting, unarmed, one handed, two-handed and two-weapon attack, and it reuses the one frame with the death animation. The only addition animation is for bow an arrow, but it still shares frames with other animations

Originally posted by eishiya

The head in the latest edit seems to be leaning to one side, away from the viewer. The neck has also looked consistently rather short to me, including in the front view and the female sprites. In the front sprites, the head seems to be meaning towards the viewer instead.
The neck is almost non-existing. The art style is inspired by Dark Seal Wizard Fire, and the characters there had no necks, due to being half chibi.

Typical Dark Seal sprite:

It is well designed and super detailed, yet stiff looking. The shading is a bit pillowy, without a distinct light source, but I guess they went for a global illumination, since the majority of the game happens outside, the sprites have to be very bright and the /-angle is mirrored and reused for \-angle. The muscles look really harsh segmented, but that is because the artwork was made for CRT monitor with heavy composite blurring while we view it on a very precise RGB LCD. So for modern pixelart we use softer shades and avoid stuff like dithering.

But it is usual to pick neckless pielart characters. Say HOMM2 sprites have no necks.
Here is by the way a few WIP versions of HOMM2 sprites. I especially like the pre-release pikeman
https://tcrf.net/Prerelease:Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_II

Originally posted by eishiya

The torso looks rather long. Generally, the crotch is about halfway up, but on this sprite, it's well below that.
Dunno what you mean. The torso is 25 pixels tall (counting from the non-existing neck), while the legs plus pelvis are 30 pixels from the heels. So if anything legs are too tall, especially considering they are bent. Then I need to have enough torso pixels, so the engine can produce the dwarf version of the bases on fly, while all the anatomy stuff like six-packs remaining readable.

But the end goal is not the anatomical truth, but just fancy/artsy looking bases. Otherwise one can just run blender with make-human and generate as much bases as one wants. That is why I tried doing it by eye and using 3d calculations, manikins and/or any geometry helpers/rulers is cheating anyway

Originally posted by eishiya

For what it's worth, I think you might be overworking these bases, and in all that detail, you're losing sight of the anatomy and basic forms. The details aren't going to matter once the sprites are clothed, and even skimpy clothing will affect the details enough that you probably don't be using most of these pixels verbatim xP

The point is that they wont be always/fully clothed, and serve as a reference for how the clothes will go. It is easy to draw clothes hiding crippled anatomy and then being puzzled why it all looks so off.

In addition I want to generate aura, but around the body, without taking the clothes into account. Then there will be a skeleton version, which will be used both for undead characters and to underline effects like lightning strike. I want also a few oversized characters and for AI to upscale them properly they need to heave a lot of details

Here is one example: Titan - a huge enlarged bare torso character with aura around, but not around clothes, since it is not clothes which are magical, but the character. I wont be pixeling such a huge character and can't be bothered to create a 3d render or a vector versions, which will look out of place anyway:

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2022 at 3:06am
Reduced the torso size by 2 pixels, apparently it was indeed too tall, i counted the proportion wrong.


Erg bedankt, eishiya!

Here is a breath of fire sprite. It uses a slightly different angle and is not orthogonal (perspective is very pronounced), but the torso is 1/2 from the legs opening. But in the end it is part of stylistic choice, just like the absence of neck, which is kinda long in real life humans, but the topdown angle makes it non-important.

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2022 at 11:38am
Lost count which version of walk cycle this is
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2022 at 2:06pm
Another edit. Feeling like I'm going in circles without really improving it, cuz I kinda liked the inertia movement of the previous version, but at the same time it looks kind of "dancing"
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2022 at 8:59am
Redoing the few apparels I have.
Everything indeed looks order of magnitude with smaller torso.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2022 at 4:16pm
Hope now it actually reads as male. I have also tried to reshade the head to make it less round and jaw more pronounced, but it is kinda challenging to make a readable male head, without a short haircut
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2022 at 5:52pm
Something I should have began with - drawing a skeleton:



But dunno if it is good enough now.
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Quote Limes Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2022 at 1:09am
skele looks crisp, his right kneecap is too bright I think.
I use GraphicsGale
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2022 at 4:57am
Originally posted by Limes

skele looks crisp, his right kneecap is too bright I think.

Thanks! It needs a lot of polishing.

I will be using these fat black outlines to make it fit with the flesh and skin base and the clothes for it. Dunno if there is a better solution.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2022 at 7:55am
A few anatomy fixes.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2022 at 12:49pm
Anatomy fixes and 180deg view

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2022 at 6:17am
Not exactly pixel art, just researching where to cut the sprite to produce the centaurs, minotaurs and similar hybrids
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2022 at 9:38am
Designing a cape. Initially I made a huge one, covering entire body, but then went for a more flowing one, so that the the apparels could be seen even from behind. Now is the hardest part - animating it! I don't have super smooth animations, but the key frames should still be expressive enough.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2022 at 2:19pm
4-frame attack animation. It actually reuses one frame from death animation (for the "anticipation" frame, or for preparing the arrow frame). It is versatile enough to support 1-hand weapon attack (with optional shield), 2-weapons, unarmed, magic attack/spellcast, bow, crossbow, blunderbuss. I just change the frame order. Designing it was akin to designing a universal 8-color palette.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2022 at 5:12am
The attack/throw animation is kinda wrong, because it has a misplaced center of mass. Real humanoid wont be moving up the left leg, when swinging from the left side. Instead the right leg will be used to balance the weight of the left one. Further more, the leg will physically get in the way of the object the character swings - I tried swinging like that with a tree branch and hit my leg  Third, it gets just mess graphically, when there is both scythe and the leg in the same area. Of course one can swing like the character in the anim above, but it will be inefficient. I think most people wont notice, but since I myself know it, I feel awkward not to fix it, unfortunately now I have 3 such bases, together with apparel, to update
TLDR: I need to learn physics.

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2022 at 6:35am
Suikoden and japanese games in general use this attack animation a lot, and they all have the other leg doing the balance. Yet western RPGs (Ultima 8 for example), do some really bad animation, and used the same side leg for balance. TLDR: when you're digging sprites for reference, never use the ones from western games, cuz they are all kind of wrong, and apparently done by programmers have a double job on the pre-christmas crunch. Japs don't have xmas, so they release games when they are ready and not when there is a special date, where you have to compete with everyone else :D

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2022 at 7:34am
But not all jRPGs, Ogre Battle mixes two styles, with half of the characters using the other side leg to balance, and the other half the same side leg, without any logic. For example, there are two-handed axe knights, one usual, and the other boss. Both have the same initial stance, yet they use different legs to balance. Although the big one changes the legs mid animation. Beyond the Beyond too uses this exact attack anim and mixes the weight balancing styles. Now I'm really confused and need a comment from a professional animator

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2022 at 6:52am
Dunno if I should redo all the humanoids in my game to use this standard base, because despite being made by professional artists, they have numerous issues, main of which is that they are not fully fitting with the game's art style and just the general direction, which became half serious. Further more, standard base allows for all kind of stuff, not possible with the statically-drawn characters, like losing their weapon or becoming undead, without resorting to ugly hacks like "this unit is unarmed" text or an obscure 16x16 icon, with some units collecting like 10 such icons over their heads.

Here is the elf, which began as high color pixelart done by a pro-artist, then went through clean up into low color palette, because it was to tall, the face was casual, and I needed team color (writing "player 5 owned" over every sprite was a bit messy).  Now I think redrawing it one more time, even if just because the hands are too small and its stance doesn't underline the game's angle, so it will look drastically out of place even for the lay folk.

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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2022 at 9:04am
Hooded characters pose additional difficulty in that they should still have their hair color readable to make most use of it to differentiate the characters.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2022 at 9:16am
Began converting humanoids to this base.
Dunno if it is really an improvement graphically, but should make things easier gameplay-wise. After all game graphics is more about reading the world, and only then about art.

Here is the vampire, which IIRC was my first attempt at pixelart, or any art in general. Originally unarmed now comes with two handed sword by default.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2022 at 1:49pm
So much time, and I still find the errors with that female base.
The scapula bones will have to be more pronounced with this pose, and there should be a clear shadow, since the character shoulders lean a bit back.

I doubt even a 3d model will help finding such issues, unless the model actually simulates muscles and bones. Setting up such a model will require a lot of time, and Blender doesn't support that.


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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2022 at 7:16am
Scrapped everything and restarted from the beginning, with a less chibi and more "edgy" base, because the one I picked was really conflicts with the project direction and doesn't uncovered other issues.

Actually I went for the full HoMM2 style copycat, with slight change to make it work in isometry.



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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2022 at 1:14pm
This time I'm using my voxel editor to get rough estimates of how it will look reversed. Originally it had the isometric projection cut feature, but somehow I managed to remove it during the development and never added it back. So I'm cutting it out manually for now, after projecting the sprite onto a cylinder inside isometric space. Mapping onto a cylinder is not how voxel modeling works, but it gives a hint. For proper voxel modeling you begin with a skeleton, match it to the sprite and then add "meat", although you can start directly with sculpting the shape. Voxel graphics is similar to pixelart. And in fact it can produce 1-to-1 correspondence for pixelart sprites, which is very good for mostly 2d games, which need to have 3d effects once in a while, so sprite will look pixel perfect for their drawn angles, but will have a bit of distortion when rotated. Unfortunately voxel editors are really clunky to use, so I need to finish developing mine if I ever want to have voxel sprites in the game
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2022 at 4:57am
Kinda did it, not exactly. Guess I will have to model a skeleton, but it will still be hard, since 3d modelling is best done from the side projections. Maybe a I can try going from the skewed isometry? Or add a few simple objects like cube and a sphere for reference? Even given an existing 180 angle, it is not enough to establish the exact dimensions, since mathematically speaking information is still missing.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2022 at 9:17am
Not sure if it really an improvement, but the character definitely went on a diet
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2022 at 2:10pm
Since the new base is by default in this kinda-aware mode, I needed a new intermediate key frame, which can be used to smoothen the anims. So I came up with the most generic frame yet:

It will serve all the purposes below:
1. moving object up
2. pushing object forward
3. part of attack frame, where the character moves weapon up for a strike
4. spellcasting
5. no way
6. defending against attack.
7. about to fall back
8. preparing bow and arrow

Then I have also reused the last frame of the attack animation for other animations. Since it kinda bends its legs, it is good as the first frame for the character jumping or gaining the momentum for attack. So now I use 4 frames to produce the 6 frame attack animation, and two of these frames are generic ones. Then I have just 1 (one) frame for bow/crossbow/blunderbuss attack animation, and use the reusable frames to turn it into 4

Not the best way to animate, but I'm lazy and it does the interpolation job.


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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2022 at 7:44am
Trying to fit the laying down sprite into a single 64x32 cell.
Otherwise it could end up with head or legs floating around the cliff.
My isometric engine uses topological sorting to implement the painter algorithm.
It works for primitive Diablo 2 style scenes, like open cave with a huge boss.
Yet in more complex Ultima 8/XCOM style scenes the sorting may lock and the tile below will cut the sprite legs.
XCOM solved that by breaking larger sprites into cell sized chunks.
And that was a chore for the artist to do.
Ultima 8 engine was far more advanced and solved it using topology.
So it is still nice to have everything fit into single cell.
Therefore I made the pose horizontal and also bended it into S-shape.
Originally it was laying on its back like in a coffin.

And being horizontal it can be 90deg rotated and reused for other purposes:

By breaking these sprites into head/arms/legs/torso parts, I also get the sitting frame

In fact it is required for my game, since characters can lose limbs and I want some gore, like decapitation.

So far it was not as much art adventure as a technical one.
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2022 at 8:10am
Less chibi/chunky style helped make the 180 angle read female.


I think at this height and with this head size the chunky style doesn't really work.
I made huge mistake by trying to copy FFT games style.
On the other hand HoMM2 style fits in perfectly.
The 90 degree light source also works better than the "isometric" 45 degree light.
Initially I stuck with the 45 degree, because I had the system where normal maps were autogenerated from the sprite itself with a CPU shader.
Think old school demoscene bumpmapping.
I wanted to keep it simple so I could compile the game for DOS and Windows 9x without any 3d acceleration.
It worked but looked not good enough.
So instead I decided to later create a separate layer and pack it somehow to fit inside the 32mb memory limit.
Yet the horrible 45deg light source stuck.
It is also hard to have shadows with 45 deg light, since you can't just make them part of the sprite, if the sprite will be mirrored.

The original idea was making a pixelart DOS game.
It would be instantly portable due to DOXBox and just a good limitation in terms of scope and expectations.


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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2022 at 2:40pm
Redrawing the male now
The only things that dont change are the heads.
Somehow I manged to make them good enough on the first try.
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Quote JaumeAlcazo Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2022 at 1:31pm
Looking very good, I would go for a Ultima 7/8 style/palette.
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