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greenraven
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Quote greenraven Replybullet Topic: Not sure what to call this topic >_<
    Posted: 03 November 2007 at 11:11pm
(Not sure what to call this topic, mods feel free to re-name it.)

I just checked the FAQs as well as a bunch of other topics, some of the stuff is covered (but not that well), some isn't. Instead of spreading it all over the place I'll just create a new topic to cover everything. I guess these are my two cents on the issues I wish to address:

  • Ripping - Ok when you take someone else's picture and claim it as your own, that's a no brainer. When you take someone's picture and just add a little hat, that's a no brainer.

  • "Submit your own work" - See, this is where the problem comes in. Mainly when you try to do popular icons such as Mario or Sonic, etc... When does fanart cross the line and become a rip? Is it emulating a technique, style, feel, or is there something else to it?

  • NPA, 'Gradients' - I can understand why most people would claim it to be NPA, since most modern programs just have some fancy button to let it do it for you, thus eliminating the time and effort, a.k.a. 'love'. But as an MSpaint user I can tell you that it CAN and I HAVE done it, by hand. So then what is so wrong with gradients? But I guess that leads to my next point...

  • NPA, 'Color conservation' - Although doing more with less is uber cool, but this isn't the stone age of the computer age. Limited palettes shouldn't necessarily be the norm. If one can do wonders with a color handicap, then what can one do without?

  • NPA, 'Oekaki' - This confuzzles me to no end. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound? If a piece is done without the aid of tools, and each pixel is placed by hand to compliment the overall style, is it not pixel art?

  • WIPs - When a piece is rejected from the gallery the smart move is to take it to the WIP forum. This is a great way to learn new tricks, new styles from different people, and to overall improve your work and your skills. I understand that a little tough love can push and motivate people to better themselves. Now I'm a big boy, my ego can take a licking and keep on ticking, but not everyone is like me, some people have a very low tolerance for C&C. Basically what it comes down to is this a conflict of artistic differences: When do WIP crits stop being helpful and when do they simply become a way to force your beliefs (art style) onto someone else?

  • Leading by example/elitism - Some of the old timers like jalonso are cool and helpful to the newbs and no one could accuse them of being an elitist. But that isn't the case for everyone, I've seen some newb bashing here and there (however small). See the problem is that these people came, they learned, they grew, but now they expect the newer people to meet the newer higher standards. Looking at the earlier gallery submissions of these so called 'elitists' you'll find some crappy crap crap.  So my message to all these people is simple and to the point: "You were a newb once, NEVER forget that."
And on that note, I'd like all of you to open your profile and go to the very first page and behold the wonders of yesteryear...

And for those of you wondering, no, I'm not disgruntled because I just had something rejected from the gallery. The last thing I submitted was the dancing zombie. And, no, I haven't received any bad comments either. These are just a few things that I observed here and there that are on my mind right now. I'm sure some of you out there must be thinking something like this, but are just afraid of asking, I'm just stepping up and making a topic about it.

I'm not looking to be a firestarter, you know the guy with the torch and the tank of gas that starts a flamewar, these are just some valid thoughts I had, is all. Feel free to respond, comment, debate, rebut. I'd happily wish to hear what you have say about all of this. Also feel free to flame, but don't expect to accomplish anything productive, one of my personal mottos is "Sticks and stones..." and "I know you are, but what am I."
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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M.E.
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Quote M.E. Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 1:32am
Hi GreenRaven,

Thank you very much for the effort you have put into this.

I'm visiting this site a few months now and for me the
real benefit is the WIP forum. That is the reason I
have registered and ask for help with my pixels.

Personally I never cared for the gallery, but I do
realize that this is a really important part of this
website. Submitting to the gallery is among other
things part of increasing your level and therefore
unlock some of the other parts of the board.

The most important rule should be the ripping.
When you take something and put your name
on it without doing anything it is wrong. Period!
BUT, if someone modifies something (and makes
a reference to it) I'm perfectly fine with that.
Look at the parody that Duchamp made when
he drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

Then there is the thing about Lil' Dudes. Don't
get me wrong. I'm not a fan of them. But I do
think that ANYTHING that motivates, stimulates
or inspires to lift up the mouse or tablet to
make some pixels should be allowed to have
a place on the board. Maybe special sections
for wees, lildudes, fanbased art?

There is a rating/voting system attached to
submitting pieces to the gallery. Personally I
would open up this section to everybody.
So anybody can have their vote if something
is worthwhile to be added to the gallery,
because I do realize and support  such
a voting mechanism to uphold some quality.
Level 2 and upward could maybe have
a stronger vote?!?

A few comments to your points:

- Ripping = Stealing = Bad = Pixels removed ,
    Poster gets one time warning

- Submit your own work. Adjusting somebody elses stuff
  should be ok as long as credit is given and references are made.

- NPA, gradients : You are not getting a better (pixel) artist when
           you use them. Commenting on them should be sufficient
           and in voting mechanism it can be a method of removal.

- NPA, Color conservation: Completely agree with you!

- NPA, Oekaki: Can be stylistic choice and again should be
           permitted if it comes through the voting.

- WIPs: 'some people have a very low tolerance for C&C'
               Actually, then you shouldn't be posting in public.
          But ok, there could be a checkmark to have the
          poster control of the comment-editor. By default
          it could be turned on. But poster could uncheck it
          thus preventing anybody to comment on the piece.
          (The rating system could be in place, oh and OT: maybe
           the system could be adjusted to see a kind of
           score where you could maybe also see how many
           people have scored you )

- Leading by Example/Elitism: My comment on this is
          that you should not do to others what you don't
          want them to do to you ....

Another NPA could be added to your list:

NPA, Color Reduction: Allthough it is a great way of
        learning it will not make you a better artist if you
        keep using it when making pixels. Again, let the
        voting mechanism do its work.
       


Those were my two cents.


Best regards from

M.E.
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 4:27am
This may belong in this topic where most of this is covered.

Oekaki is not permitted ever. It is a different art style than pixelart. Some process and procedures are similar but they are different things. Its like this, at the Museum of Modern Art they would never show a painting from the Renessaince even though it is created with oils and a brush because it is not Modern Art.

Edited by jalonso - 04 November 2007 at 4:32am
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Monkey 'o Doom
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Quote Monkey 'o Doom Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 6:02am
Color Conservation:
Pixel art has its roots in the ages of system restrictions, when you had 4 or 16 colors and maybe you couldn't even use them all next to each other because of the GPU. Artists were forced to work around this adversity and they developed the ability to make great art with few colors and well-looping animations with few frames. Also, the use of color is simplified once you have finalized your palette: instead of having to know which one of your 2.8 million reddish colors, you use the red in your palette and accent with other colors to give subtle details of hue. And after the art is done, one may tweak palettes to their liking. With 16 or 20 colors this isn't a problem at all, but when one has 256 or 16,777,216 colors in a massive piece, even if it was all done pixel-by-pixel, it will be a veritable bitch to tweak colors by hand.
 
Gradients:
Gradients encourage sucky shading and laziness in the application of color to surfaces. This is never a good thing. They also inflate color counts massively if done with a tool. If you need a transition between colors in pixel art, it's acceptable to add a few colors or dither, but having a new shade for every 1pixel line of your huge gradient is ridiculous and will most likely result in wasted colors and the gradient looking out of place in your piece.
 
WIPs:
I don't know; I think some members may have problems with cookie-cutter responses like "needs aa. dither it too, and clean your lines" There's nothing wrong with these crits, but it should be a goal of a critique to emphasize WHY the actions prescribed will benefit the piece. If the poster can't find a reason the piece actually needs aa, but rather just noticed its absence and acted from that, then antialiasing can gtfo for the time being, if you know what I mean. So I think it would be useful for posts of critique to go through this change:
 
This:
You need more contrast and make the wings bigger. Also shift the hue so it'll make the thing look better. Maybe you could AA it?
 
To this:
If you added contrast (increased the difference between colors) it would help keep the sprite in front of the background because eyes are drawn to areas of high contrast. You could also achieve this by varying saturation some between sprite & BG. Also, the sprite's wings look really small for allowing flight; do you have a reference you're getting proportions from or is there an in-game reason for it, or would you consider changing them for realism? One thing you might want to try is tinting highlight tones of colors toward the color of the lightsource, and shadow colors toward the color of the object that would reflect the most light on them, so you would tint the sprite's highlights red from the setting sun and his shadows purple from the blue sea's reflection of light that's mostly red. <AA comment removed because sprites on dynamic BGs chould not be aa'ed to them.>

RPG is numberwang.
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M.E.
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Quote M.E. Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 6:05am
Hi Jalonso,

Yup, I agree, it would have been better if GreenRaven had continued
from that.

Best regards from

M.E.

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greenraven
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Quote greenraven Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 7:19am
M.E. and Monkey 'o Doom, those were the kind of comments I was hoping to get. Thank you. 

jalonso, finally someone gave an answer about Oekaki that isn't a simple "it isn't pixelart" and one that I can actually understand. Thank you very much.
(And I guess this could have gone into the FAQ, you should be able to merge this topic into it. Just move the first post.)

Hopefully this will get more comments so I can get a broader understanding on how the average artist sees these topics. A lot of different places have a lot of different rules regarding the very same things. I'm just testing the limits and boundaries here now, so I don't make an idiot out of myself later.
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:20am
I think color conservation is important to learn when first starting out, but once you've got your feet planted and you understand and respect the disciplines of pixel art, you may transgress them. The artist Riva is a good example of this. Most of his pieces have 100+ colors, but no one really minds because he's obviously done his time as a pixel artist and deliberately chooses to use such a large palette. It's a difference between making an informed decision with an understanding of the disciplines of the medium, and simply being ignorant, sloppy, or lazy.
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spartan_117
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Quote spartan_117 Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Hatch

I think color conservation is important to learn when first starting out, but once you've got your feet planted and you understand and respect the disciplines of pixel art, you may transgress them. The artist Riva
 
there is also that guy who did that realistic looking bat/rat thing. i dont recall who
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Tirza
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Quote Tirza Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2007 at 7:34am
Great, interesting and helpful message. Thanks :)

Tirza
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