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Zizka
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Quote Zizka Replybullet Topic: Working on a Font
    Posted: 30 January 2016 at 11:47am


Any and every criticism is welcomed.
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2016 at 3:00pm
What kinda 7 is that...are you Canadian?
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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 30 January 2016 at 6:43pm
It's a normal seven. Jal, I'm guessing you're American xP

It would be nice to see some sample texts, and to know what this is for.

Some crit based on just what I can see so far:
The white dot in the 8 looks out of place.
Various repeating features in the font are inconsistent. For example, the O and U both have a curved bottom, but they look very different for no apparent reason. Similar with the the center bits on W and w, and you're treating the sharp bits of X, x, M all differently as well. These kinds of inconsistencies make the letters look like they belong in different fonts, not together.

You also have some odd contrast going on. I am referring to thick/thin contrast, not the colours. For the most part it looks like you're going for uniform width, but then a and B have very thin horizontals on the bottom, while e has a very thin center bar. I suspect these are a consequence of trying to "fit" the letters into your desired size. As a general rule, sacrifice the negative space (the "holes"), not the positive space (the filled in letter shapes). People notice weirdness in the positive space more easily.
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NancyGold
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Quote NancyGold Replybullet Posted: 31 January 2016 at 6:53am
Originally posted by jalonso

What kinda 7 is that...are you Canadian?

Dashed 7 is common in handwritten Russian and a some European countries, like Finland. I.e.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_(%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE)#/media/File:Hand_written_7.png

z and q are sometimes written with dash too, guess because they mistake Z with 2 in handwriting. In America there is no handwriting calligraphy, they just draw font letters
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bluedxca93
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Quote bluedxca93 Replybullet Posted: 31 January 2016 at 7:18am
2 7 G S D N B relook at them.

b.t.w im german . i do write z and 7 in both ways mentioned here.

The font isn't bad just these characters need some rework in my opinion. good work please continue. it isn't as easy as it seems.
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 31 January 2016 at 7:24am
Guys, I was joking with zizka who is an attention ho and I always look for ways to call him a Canadian.
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Zizka
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Quote Zizka Replybullet Posted: 31 January 2016 at 1:00pm
@jalonso: Much obliged for the criticism, huh, jalonso? Criticism, eh? Gonna demote you back to level 1, got connexions!

@eishiya:

I don't disagree with you but I'm not sure as to how to fix your criticism.

The white dot in the 8 looks out of place.

It wasn't supposed to be there, fixed.

It would be nice to see some sample texts, and to know what this is for.

Sure, it's for my game. Here's a sample:



For example, the O and U both have a curved bottom, but they look very different for no apparent reason.


Could you specify what you are referring to?

I did a series of those. I think the last one "fit" better.

Similar with the the center bits on W and w, and you're treating the sharp bits of X, x, M all differently as well.


I did a few more of those.

but then a and B have very thin horizontals on the bottom, while e has a very thin center bar. I suspect these are a consequence of trying to "fit" the letters into your desired size. As a general rule, sacrifice the negative space (the "holes"), not the positive space (the filled in letter shapes).


Yup, that's why. I want each letter to have the same size (except for the l and i which are narrower). I've fixed all of that if you look at the new version. All the positive space is consistent now.

2 7 G S D N

Also tried a new version.

Here it is folks!






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bluedxca93
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Quote bluedxca93 Replybullet Posted: 31 January 2016 at 9:23pm
O=Q?
third UO (edges cropped)
not second 7
second S
third D
third N
first or last th
only my opinion.
nice font.
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eishiya
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 01 February 2016 at 10:24am
As bluedxca93 said, your O is identical to Q. The most minimal way to distinguish them is by giving the Q a sharper corner in the lower right, but you have enough space to do a proper tail on it.

As for your multiple versions, here are my votes:
("Original" means the one presented in the full alphabet just above.)
5th O, it matches the most in style and has the most proportional look.
Original U. The script-esque alternate U looks out of place with the other letters.
I like the longer middle part on the 4th M.  4th m. I assume Ww will be up-side-down Mm?
All of the Xx look a bit out of place and unbalanced. I think 2nd is best.
Original 7. Diagonals look out of place in this font. The 3rd 7 is okay, but feels a little naked. The 4th seven is the best in that row, but the original is better because its crossbar goes further into the letter.
Original G. None of the new ones fit the rest of the font.
2nd S.
Original D, but maybe with different AA. Of the new options, 3rd D is best.
3rd N.
1st th. The height of the horizontal bar in h usually looks best being at the same height as your other lower-case letters ("x-height").

It seems you're undecided on how to round the corners on things, so all of my votes disregard those. You should standardize those at some point.

Use the fat full stop in all cases, those tiny dots in F.A.Q. don't look good.
Did you put the text together by hand? The semicolon seems to float xP

In the sample sentences, it feels like some of the letters are too far apart. Have you considered not having space between them? Because you have the dark borders around each letter, it could look quite good to have the borders meet (and in some cases, even overlap). Usually, the purpose of dark borders in pixel is to do exactly that - link them to build a dark background for the font, so that the font is readable on any background.

I had some other critiques as well, but rather than suggesting more "try this!" I decided to make an edit. These aren't necessarily "this is better, do this" versions, but more like other options to consider.


I put the letters closer together in the sentence preview, I think this reads better than leaving spaces between them.

Letters underlined with red are tweaks of your letters (letters where I just took one of your alts aren't underlined):
A: Changed the size and shape of the hole.
D: Changed some AA, made the stem consistent with B.
g: Changed the height to match the height of the other lower-case letters.
j: Shortened the tail, got rid of some AA that was making it look too thin.
K, k: Made the arms look more even.
m: Gave it a longer middle bit to match M.
p: Changed the descender height to match other descenders.
Q: Gave it a tail, changed AA to match O.
S: Took your 2nd alt S and made the middle area more consistent in width.
s: Minor AA changed for more consistent width.
Vv: Fattened them up a bit, but they're still distinct enough from Uu.
q: Changed the descender height to match other descenders.
r: Fattened, corners made consistent with other letters.
X: Got rid of some fancy shaping you were attempting. I realise it was on purpose and is likely meant to give the font a more unique character, but I don't think it was reading well, and it didn't seem to fit with the style elsewhere. A simple x works better for this font in my opinion.
x: Got rid of some AA to fatten up the arms.
Y: Fattened up the arms.
y: Changed the height to match the height of the other lower-case letters.
z: Fattened up the diagonal.
2: Fattened it up, made the middle line be what I feel is a more pleasant curve.
3: Fattened it up to be more consistent.
, (comma): Made it rounder and more like the rest of the font, and longer to compensate so that it doesn't look too much like the full stop. Also, lowered it by 1px so that it sits on the same line as everything else. You were already using it like this, but I moved it in the image to make that explicit. In case you ever make a font out of this, it'll help xP
?: Fattened up the curve a bit.

Letters underlined with blue are ones where I did a second pass over the whole font and made tweaks (mostly to corners) to make everything more consistent stylistically.

I added the full stop (your work), and quotes based on my comma. I squished them together so that they read more like a single character and not like you're abusing the apostrophe (which would just be the comma raised to that height) xP


Edit: More things to think about:
i and j (the two letters with dots) look out of place because their stems end lower than x-height. Consider pulling them up, but leaving the dots where they are. This would mean having no empty space between the dots and the stems, just some dark pixels. Could still look good!
If the descenders on p and q look too long to you, you could shorten them... if you also shorten g, y, and j. j is trivial to shorten. g and y could be shortened by eliminating the transparent gap between their bowls and the hooks on their descenders. This could actually work quite well, since your s, e, and a are also quite squished together - they'd all match then.
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Zizka
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Quote Zizka Replybullet Posted: 03 February 2016 at 6:42am
@bluedxca95: Thanks for the feedback!

Wow, Eishiya, you outdid yourself this time! Huge thanks!

So:
-Changed the “s” for the second one.
-Changed the “o” with the 5th one.
-Kept the original “u”.
-Kept the original “7”
-Used the third D but with different AA.
-I picked the 3rd “N”. I was surprised you suggested this one as the left edge is a lot sharper than with the other letters I felt.
-Replaced both “t” but picked the second “h”. I felt like the horizontal bar on the “h” was too high in the first one. The second one is one pixel lower.
-I picked the 4th “M”.

So regarding the “Q”. I figured each letter should have the same size for the whole thing to be consistent and look good. As I was redoing the letters, I came to the conclusion that that’s not always possible or at least preferable with the “I” for example. So I had to kind of given in with the “I” and make it one pixel narrower.

So with the “Q” I wanted to use the “O” as a base and build from it homogeneity. So I figured I’m going to try to make the tail fit in as tight a space as possible. I managed to make it fit by adding an extra pixel. So I think it’s still consistent.

Yes, I did put them together by hand. Did you manage to integrate them in a way where you can actually type the font? That’s cool if you did.

I do reverse the “M” for the “W”. I do the same for the “b”, “d” and “q”.

i and j (the two letters with dots) look out of place because their stems end lower than x-height. Consider pulling them up, but leaving the dots where they are. This would mean having no empty space between the dots and the stems, just some dark pixels. Could still look good!


Ok. So I changed “i” like you said. For the “j” I also changed it. I actually decided to make it narrower, didn’t much like the long tail underneath as it was the only letter that had it and it went against the “stocky” style of the letters.

If the descenders on p and q look too long to you, you could shorten them... if you also shorten g, y, and j. j is trivial to shorten. g and y could be shortened by eliminating the transparent gap between their bowls and the hooks on their descenders. This could actually work quite well, since your s, e, and a are also quite squished together - they'd all match then.


Well, I find the “q” was already short enough as it was.

I did change the “y” however. Since I got rid of the long tail of the “j” I figured I should do the same for the “y”. I did the same thing with the “g” so that all the tails underneath the letters reach the same point.

I added the full stop (your work), and quotes based on my comma. I squished them together so that they read more like a single character and not like you're abusing the apostrophe (which would just be the comma raised to that height) xP


I felt that your edit to the apostrophe was a bit too sharp for the rest of the font which is more “curvy”. I squashed the quotes together however, it does look better.

Now regarding the individual edits:
A: Changed the hole.
g: changed the height too.
j: removed some AA, shortened the tail so that the bottom is that same height as the g.
m: longer middle bit too.
p & q: I kept the same height to keep everything consistent with the “g” and “y”.
S: did that too.
U & V & Y: Changed the top so that everything is consistent regarding the round edges.
X, x : Yeah, the “x” was certainly problematic and it’s the letter that gave me the most trouble. I’m still not happy with it but I changed it a bit. Made it one pixel larger for one thing.
Regarding the “K, k”, I’m curious, why did you use a sharp corner for the small “k” but not for the capital “K”?
I decided to make the “k” one pixel larger since I’ve already done it with a few other letters. Ditto with the capital “K”, I think it looks better that way.
Other changes to the curves based on your edits.
Z, z: tweaked the z further.
Gotta go to work but it’s a bit better I find.
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