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sedgemonkey
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Quote sedgemonkey Replybullet Topic: Should transparency count as a color?
    Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:07am

I was having a discussion with another pixeller about whether transparency counts as a "color" when referring to limited palettes.  For example... would you consider this piece 3 or 4 color? 

Based on the results of the answers we will use that for our guidelines when we add a searchable "Color" field to the Pixel Joint gallery.  What do you all think -- should transparency count as a color?



Edited by sedgemonkey
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kankki
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Quote kankki Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:11am
No I don't say transparency is a color.
Transparency can be many colors, because it grabs the backgrond!


Edited by kankki
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Brian the Great
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Quote Brian the Great Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:32am
"col·or
a phenomenon of light (as red, brown, pink, or gray) or visual perception that enables one to differentiate otherwise identical objects."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=colour

So it seems it wouldn't be. But as always, everything is ifferent in the computer world. It still uses that transparent colour, by that I mean it uses a colour to not display.

Is? Yes. Should? No.
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Quote Demon Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:36am
Transparency starts out as a color, actually... So I gues you could call it a color.  The webbrowsing, and computer software that views it first reads it's image information, and whether there is a need to make a unreadable color transparent.  Say you Right Click > Copy a .GIF image without saving it and then paste it into an image editor.  The background turns either black or white, right?  This is because when copying a .GIF image, you do not grab the file information to know whats transparent, therefore showing the transparency as black or white.  So, before you see the outcome image, transparency actually is a color, an unreadable one, but still a color. 
"At least we killed some boredom..." - Death Note.
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kankki
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Quote kankki Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 10:51am
2 vs 1 ,Demon!! 
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Blueberry_pie
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Quote Blueberry_pie Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 11:27am
I guess transparancy is a colour according to computers, but according to me it isn't. 
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kankki
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Quote kankki Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 11:32am
Yeah.
But not a color in the REAL world.
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Psychotic_Carp
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Quote Psychotic_Carp Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 6:12pm
How can anyone count something thats not actually there?
got game?
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pixelblink
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Quote pixelblink Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 6:33pm
transparency is no colour hence it is not a colour. I wouldn't count it as such anyways
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Kirra
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Quote Kirra Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2005 at 6:47pm
I dont really think it is a color. I second Brian the Great
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Akira
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Quote Akira Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2005 at 1:10am
I say count it cause back in the old days it was counted as one of the colours for game palletes. If you work with a limited pallete for a game company they expect you to include transparency in the pallete so its just a good idea to count it if you want to get a pixel job.

If you can't be bother with that long explaination i say:
COUNT IT
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Quote Saboteur Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2005 at 1:37am

Count it? Why? Transparency is like the anticheese. You have your chese, but then someone is bound to eat some, hopefully eat a pie-like shape of it, cause then you can have some anticheese, which is solely the absence of cheese. It's there, but it's not. That's the whole point. If the anticheese weren't there, the cheese would be, so then, logically, they're complete opposites.

Now, do you consider anticheese cheese? I don't, cause you can't eat it. It tastes a lot like the air and/or the fridge. And it's damn hard to put on crackers. it has none of the characteristics of cheese, so I refuse to call it such.

But you MAY argue that it says cheese in the name. FIE! I tell you true, it says anti as well. Not just anti, but an anti that precedes the noun in question. Meaning that it can't be exactly what it's not.

--HAHAHAHAHA! EAT LOGIC!--

And then point number three. Yes, points one and two were the same, but shut up, I need the really weird essay-like non-essay format. Please, don't get me started. Don't.

Anyways... Say someone had a harsh craving for some anticheese. You'd say "Well. That bit of air over there would do!" and you go and take a bite of it, only to realise you took a huge bite of anticheese. How was this air anticheese? It was waaay outside the cheese's parameters! Well, you see, essentially, the cheese outside the cheese's borders has precisely the same nonexistant levels of cheese as the anticheese, meaning they must be the same!

"EUREKA!" you cry. "This freakin' bloke's got some jolly well good ol' tea time logicalness in his -mumbling-"

(In real words, and sanely put, this means that, arguably, you can have no size to a picture, because transparency is not stopped by borders. So transparency is just like fancy cropping, and therefore not a colour."



Edited by Saboteur
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Psychotic_Carp
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Quote Psychotic_Carp Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2005 at 4:06am

Originally posted by Akira

I say count it cause back in the old days it was counted as one of the colours for game palletes. If you work with a limited pallete for a game company they expect you to include transparency in the pallete so its just a good idea to count it if you want to get a pixel job.

If you can't be bother with that long explaination i say:
COUNT IT

this uses 2 colors and a transparency yet only calls on 2 colors so is it 3 colors or 2?

 

got game?
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Ork
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Quote Ork Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2005 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Akira

I say count it cause back in the old days it was counted as one of the colours for game palletes.


...not that simple... advanced sprite formats (used also in the old days) doesn't store transparent pixels at all. so it's possible to make limited color images with transparency, which is not included in the palette!... so transparency doesn't count;)

for me, it's just a plain waste of one color if you include transparency in limited palette.


Edited by Ork
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Carnivac
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Quote Carnivac Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2005 at 4:14am
To me it does count since if you do work for machines with only 16 colors per sprite then it does mean 15 colors plus transparency.  I just find it best to work that way.  Though with a piece like this its debatable.
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Akira
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Quote Akira Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2005 at 2:20am
Plug any transparent image into any image editor with a colour count function and use colour count and you'll find that it counts transparency as a colour.
Couldn't we just leave it up to the image author to decide to include transparency or not? then everybody would be happy expect those searching who may be disapointed to find that searching 16 colours yields both 16 and 17 colour images (or 15 & 16 if you want).
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Ork
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Quote Ork Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2005 at 4:27am
yes, it depends on the program how transparency is implemented. usually it's just one color index in the palette, sometimes you have separate mask image and sometimes you don't need to handle transparent pixels at all by skipping them. Anyway put a good explanation near the searchable color field;)



Edited by Ork
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Aleiav
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Quote Aleiav Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2005 at 1:31am
eeh... I don't WANT to count it. :P
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Quote 1ucas Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2005 at 2:09am
The transparency is stored exactly as a color on the image format, and it is added as such on the main pallete of GIF and PNG files.

So, is it a color? Depends, really.

If the color count on pieces here is used for technical purposes only, then yep, definitely. It should be counted as such.

But if the number of colors is considered in an artistical meaning, then it should not be counted as such. The black and white piece posted above by Psychotic_Carp is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking here. If the person is looking for dichromatic stuff, that transparency being counted in is just counterintuitive and won't aid the search.

But in any case, I think it should be counted as such becauase it is, in the end, useful, whereas not counting it would be just conventional. The good thing is, the proper usage of the "image contains transparency" checkbox can be used here to solve the whole issue. :)

... Except if someone makes full use of PNG's alpha channel, then there's absolutely nothing we can do about it.
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Quote supergoat Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2005 at 11:25am

Transparency, in the sense that we're familiar with as pixel artists, is only a representation (or lack thereof) of a certain color index... let's take GIFs or PNGs with binary transparency as an example (alpha channels are a tricky example because in that case transparency becomes another dimension in digital color space). In this case, you have your limited number of color indices (say 8).  They all have red, green, and blue components.  If you make one transparent, the only difference is that it is FLAGGED as transparent.  The color itself only becomes transparent in its representation; that is, if you specify it to be displayed as transparent.  Otherwise, the color is solid and viewable.  Heck, you can even see it in your editor; it's usually your background color.  If I go to my little Graphics Gale menu and tell it to count the colors, it'll count the color indices regardless of whether or not you can see them in the final product.  In a pixel/digital piece, I would definitely count binary transparency as a color, just because of the nature of the medium.

On the other hand, if I take my crayolas and scribble on the bathroom wall like I did yesterday, would I count the white background of the wall as a color, even if I had solid areas of white within the boundaries of the drawing itself? I don't think I would... I haven't thought about it much.

So I guess my opinion is that pixel = yes, traditional = no(?)

 

edit: to make things even more confusing, say you have two images.  One is just a black pixel.  Another is just a black pixel in the middle of a transparent canvas.  They both look the same and in nearly all aesthetic senses are the same image (unless you count the buffer zone caused by the transparency surrounding the second image), however, technically one is a single color image, and the other is a two color image.

Okay, maybe that wasn't as fun to think about as I thought.



Edited by supergoat
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Rynov
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Quote Rynov Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2005 at 12:40pm

Technically, no. Otherwise, maybe.



Edited by Rynov
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So-lou
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Quote So-lou Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2005 at 5:13pm
I don't think it should count as a colour. That's rigoddamndiculous. If you put your pixel art with transparency on a website and the website's background is purple, does that mean you count the purple? Hell no.
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sedgemonkey
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Quote sedgemonkey Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2005 at 11:59am

Enough of this theoretical discussion... we are going to be adding a filter for all artwork where you can search on the amount of colors in a piece for the gallery so we need to wrap up the votes. If you have anything to say about this please write it now.

I had to interpet some of your answers so please correct me if I got your vote wrong.

NO
kankki
Brian the Great (?)
Blueberry_pie
Pyschotic_Carp
pixelblink
Kirra
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Ork (?)
Aleiav
1ucas <---- check his post to see what will probably end up happening and why
So-lou

YES
sedgemonkey
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supergoat
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MAYBE
Rynov



Edited by sedgemonkey
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Quote PixelSnader Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 5:38am
i think it should be counted, because the artist has to place all transparent pixels the same way he does with the usual pixels, so for the artist the effect is the same (and were mostly artists in here.. right?)

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Funkapotamus
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Quote Funkapotamus Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2005 at 6:49am
This should be a no brainer. Until technology has progressed past the "oldschool" point of merely flagging a color as transparent, then it should be counted as a color.

Image formats without an alpha channel are still used. Therefore technology has not progressed past them, and thus, transparency should be counted as a color.

It is still important to use low-color images in game development. For example, in OpenGL it is much faster to render RGB textures rather than RGBA. For this reason developers still choose to use a transparent color when dealing with their graphics. Even if the majority of the game at 32 bit color- there are small intregal parts which are optimized through use of low-color images. When creating these parts it is vital to know how many colors an image has. As far as the computer is concerned with these parts: Those such images count transparency as a color.

As a programmer, I say count it. We're the ones who will be effected anyhow.

To make things more complicated I would say to count the color depending on the image format. If it's an RGB image with transparency, then count it. If it's an RGBA image with transparency, then don't count it. I.E.: If it's a transparent .gif with 256 colors, then count it. If it's a 16 bit .png with 4 transparency layers, then don't count it.

Edited by Funkapotamus
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Core_12
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Quote Core_12 Replybullet Posted: 14 July 2005 at 9:10pm
supergoat is quite correct. The color persists, only whether you see it or not is flagged. I can change the color of the transparent part in a gif, and when you paste it into an image editor without transparency (e.g. Paint), the background will not be black or white. So it is, technically, a color.

But, the problem, whether it should be counted as a color when pixeling limited-palette artwork, depends on the type of work you're doing, in my opinion.

If you're drawing a sprite, then no, transparency should not be taken into account, because a sprite should fit on any background.

Unless it's vital that your artwork doesn't mess of the background, or you're doing art of a specific system style (GameBoy has no transparency), I say

NO, transparency should not be counted as a color.


Edited by Core_12
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zachriel
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Quote zachriel Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2005 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Psychotic_Carp

How can anyone count something thats not actually there?

Amen to that. Transparency is used as non-existance, and should therefor be treated as such. Non-existance. To me it's silly to count something that does not exist.

But on the other hand I do not know how paid pixel artists work or how old restricted games work (or any games, to be honest), so I won't cry if you decide to keep counting
the non-existance.
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