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sharprm
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bullet Topic: Not pixel Art - using Painter disagreemen
    Posted: 20 October 2008 at 3:10pm
Okay, so the actual piece that was deemed 'not pixel art' i don't have access to right now but I can still get to the 64*64 preview file (will post 100*100 in  a day or two):



So is this Pixel Art? I think so. Basically, I argue that pieces like the Monkey Island 2 backgrounds (scanned, refined, color reduced original art) are Pixel art.

Here is my original skull drawn in Painter:



Here is the size + color reduced one:



And I've already shown you a section of the finished one. Now, some parts have been cleaned up (eg. eyes, forehead). Some parts remain the same (eg. teeth). BUT I have control over every pixel. So it is Pixel art.

This is different from color reducing a photo because the original piece is by me and requires skill to draw (unlike taking a photo).

Using Painter is quicker and more expressive than 'perfect pixel placement', and I doubt is 'cheating' any more than using lighten and darken tools in promotion. Why can't one use brushes if you clean it up afterwards? Also, is the RESULT of cleaning up any different from pixelling from scratch and using the color reduced picture as a reference?

I believe it is pixel art and I would like it to be deemed so (otherwise i'll have to start posting in DA). 
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jalonso
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 3:46pm
I'm afraid you are wrong in your basic concepts as Pixeljoint deems pixelart to be. That you created the original is of no consequence. By your account almost everything would have to be included in the PJ gallery.

*I am kinda sure that DA no longer deems this to be pixelart now too.

** Photography is very much an art form and taking photos does take skill.


Edited by jalonso - 20 October 2008 at 3:48pm
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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 4:12pm
The definition provided when submitting seems to restrict the method (no brushes) with the aim of ensuring no doodles.

Restricting the method seems flawed.  This is because you can pixel stuff to look like it was painted. All it does is encourage people to be deceptive about how they made the pieces. I don't consider my piece to be a doodle.

Maybe you could supply the definition.

Your last two points are nitpicking. DA has sections for non pixel art.

edit: also, taking a photo requires different skills to drawing. Sure, composition, lighting, but drawing has skills in addition to that. Since the color reduced photos that I have come across are photos taken from GOOGLE image, why do you even bring that up? Nitpicking, no argument.

edit2: Saying that 'nearly everything' would be allowed is wrong. All you need do is have this as a definition:

a) Less than 256 colors
b) No photos used directly in the picture (method related)
c) You can use brushes, but clean it up so that it appears to look pixelled.
d) no doodles

Also, just because Deviant Art may have a similar definition of PA to PJ, it doesn't mean the definition is the best definition that PJ could have.


Edited by sharprm - 20 October 2008 at 4:34pm
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 4:51pm
Brushes with cleaning mean that you can't have control over every pixel. And by control over each pixel, we mean control when you place each pixel, not just the ability to alter individual pixels when you go back and touch parts up. If you drew over everything with your own hand-created palette, I'd call it pure PA. As it is, I'd call it acceptable for use in a demo or on DA. But if you're not putting down every pixel with deliberation, how can critiques based on that assumption really help you improve your technique? If a rather inaccurate simile is of any use, it's like getting critiques on brushstrokes after you spraypainted a piece to look painted with a brush.

RPG is numberwang.
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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 5:10pm
There we go! Definition supplied. Control when you place each pixel eh?

Fair enough.

OKay, so I'll head over to DA. Remember theres a difference between being an artist and an auditor

edit: Also because I thought your simile could be extended.

Its like allowing people to use spraypaint to look like oilpaintings

But not allowing people to use oil paints and then spraypaint to make a piece that looks like it was spraypainted to look like an oil painting.


Edited by sharprm - 20 October 2008 at 5:32pm
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jalonso
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 8:31pm
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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 10:57pm
Whats the point of posting that link?



If I kept working on it, would it eventually become pixel art? If i could show every pixel had been reworked, its pixel art right?
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 11:12pm
the latest WIP i had was a drawing that i then reduced to a few greyscale colors and started working at.  but it changed so much during the lengthy process that it not even recognizable as the same pencil sketch.  I treated it more as lineart than a means to get down the basic form/colors/everything else, though.  But I digress.  I'd say a point exists where enough reworking could be done to allow it to be considered "pixel art", but I doubt the amount of time it would take would justify this method, rather than working from scratch or using the original as a reference.
one also has to ask: why make a "pixel art" version at all, if not wholly or at least almost entirely by pixelart means?
if the basic shapes, forms and colors already existed via a painting, then that is the means they were created by, rather than pixel art, which takes a secondary role and is used for "clean up".
Pixelart needs to be the primary tool, almost the only, with some lineart exceptions.  And working by this means to reach "true" pixel art means you're putting a lot of time redoing the entire thing to allow pixelart to overcome the initial means ans swap out it's secondary position, and continuing to work until the new secondary method is unintelligible.

I tried not to ramble. it's late.
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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 20 October 2008 at 11:47pm
Its not a ramble it seems to be a good point - pixel art is a slow and tedious medium and even if you jump start the process (using lineart, photo, painting) you need to continue making slow and tedious changes until it looks like you never jump started.

The skull for instance needs more cleaning up to be pixel art. The man breathing fire needs much less cleaning up to be pixel art.

The rules should be no brushes unless it is significantly disguised. And some examples provided. Anyway doesn't matter. I wanted to make my cleaned up painter art because 'true' pixel art is so slow and also i dont have much practise taking a big digital picture to completion, so i thought id go with what i know, pixel art.  I'll be posting my stuff on deviant art so issue resolved.
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 12:04am
My biggest problem with your pro-colour-reduction argument here is that it removes the possibility of most of the "pixel-art exclusive" techniques. Some of the things that make pixel art pixel art aren't possible (or, I suppose, likely) with automated reduction functions. On a simple level, control over dithering and palette control aren't as powerful in the hands of a computer as they are in the hands of an artist. On a more complex level... well, you'd have to ask someone who knew what the fun they were talking about...

What it boils down to (as mentioned) is control. Colour reductions aren't likely to complexly interlace tones into some mad dither pattern that seems insane but works (cough st0ven, helm) and even if by some magical fluke it did... well, wasn't your doing anyways so there's not much you can take credit for.

Also, important question: WHY do a digital painting then reduce it to pass it as pixel art? Be proud of your art for what it is, have it compete with its kind, don't try stick an oil painting in a spraypainted competition!

Interesting discussion, though. Always good to ask :)
"I was minding my own business and walking across a pebbled path, and a Duck started giving me the business."
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Hapiel
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 12:11am
Our perception of pixel art is more than the result.


The rules should be

???
PixelJoint lives by the old rules for 7 years. Lets just say PJ can decide for itself if its needed to change a rule.


I wish I was better in English, I love discussing ;)
But this one is already over too.

Good luck with your skull on dA, its an awesome skull, really and I guess it will be highly appreciated there :) (as long as you do not add it in the PA category ;) )

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Larwick
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 8:29am
If you have created a photo reduced picture that has been cleaned up significantly using pixelart techniques (so much so that you couldn't tell) and you let people assume you created it from scratch you are lying to yourself and other people, and are letting people assume you have more skill or put more effort in than you really do or have.
If you do mention that you colour reduced a photo and worked on it, it would require a WIP animation or sorts (or an original photo) so those viewing could understand how much work you really put into it, and could judge and comment on you accordingly.
Whether that would be allowed on PixelJoint is a very wary subject still because it is hard to enforce. It's much easier for us if we dissallow all photo reduction pieces and just let them post those on sites that do allow or are ignorant to such things.
Sure, tracing is faster and easier (perhaps) but it's still looked down upon here and many other places. If we can urge people not to trace, and to try to reach a point where they prefer to work with reference at their side rather than 'tracing' directly, then we have surely helped people.

Also i have a reply to a comment you made on your recent Pixel Dump piece:

Enjoy the dump with its arbitary, easily flaunted rule which unecessarily increases the amount of time you spend on your pieces and restricts your ability to depict realistic things.


That's like being on a charcoal drawing gallery site and complaining that it's harder to draw using charcoal than pencil, and that you want to add pencil lines to your charcoal pieces. Whether it is or not, you must abide and respect the sites rules. I'm glad you've found another place to submit those pieces you cannot submit here, but no need to be a jerk about it. Whether that's what you intended or not it's how i'm forced to view you recently.
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 9:35am
Here's my two cents. Cuz I always must leave them somewhere. 

Anyway...

"Respect the rules of the house."  PJ seems to have a 'purist' point of view on pixel art. Some agree with that, some don't.

No one's stopping you from doing what you do, just from submitting it to the gallery.

Point is: I make lots of digital crap, but I only submit stuff to PJ that fits with the rules of PJ. Simple as that.

One of my earlier pieces was the shadow mage. (It's craptasic, I know.)



Though this is still pixel art, it simply doesn't fit with the PJ rules. So I stopped submitting this kind of stuff.

No one's trying to be mean here, at least I'm not. I've seen some good pieces turned down from the gallery (Sandro and that one Russian guy, just off the top of my head), but as good as they were, they just didn't follow the purist rule PJ has set. Respect the rules of the house. Simple as that.
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 1:03am

Saboteur - I donít think you appreciate that after the automatic process I am changing things manually.

I am not passing off Paintings as Pixel art just because I am lazy (thatís probably a big factor though). I am also trying to come up with a method that is SUPERIOR to a purely pixel art method.

Iíve already found one: if you look at the last two pieces I submitted they were drawn at 2x and rescaled. It boils down to Ďconsciously placing pixelsí Ė sometimes you can be more creative if you draw a house on paper compared to if you build it with lego bricks.

The way to satisfy everyone is to do what was done on Foolís piece with the fire lady and the water man (I think). Draw a color/digital large picture and then pixel a smaller one from scratch. I canít be assed doing that though.

 

Lollige Ė Iíd rather submit it in PA and then chuck another tantrum if they donít allow it ;)

 

Larwick Ė I never said I wanted photos color reduced to be allowed. Using photos directly in all art is ugly. Iím advocating color reducing your own paintings. Also, I always mentioned how I made these things so Iím not lying. Just because I donít post some WIP animation doesnít mean Iím being shifty. Using brushes and size reductions doesnít mean you lack skill. Would you judge Mozartís music based on how neatly he drew his musical notes? I think skill has more to do with realism/ color choice etc. that super-ace-dither-patterns.

 

No its like going to a charcoal forum and telling them that I should be allowed to use a pencil because at the end of the day pencils are just charcoal in a wooden casing. If I ever gave you the impression that I give a *##@ about what people think about me then I am truly sorry.

Greenraven - I'm moving house :P

[P.S. no points for saying "go already!"- I'm gone so long as no-one puts a lame argument/version of events forwad]



Edited by sharprm - 23 October 2008 at 1:05am
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 1:55am
If you started from scratch again on the resized version there is no problem. If you started modifieing the 2x version until it looked good, it gets worse, but if the first version was pa it might be o.k. (in my opinion)

And trust me. As soon as they (she) find out that it is a modified color redux they will move it. And they (she) will find out!

sometimes you can be more creative if you...

Yes, probably. But we are not the community that is made for those who want to be creative, we are a community that wants pixel art, and we hope the creators of those were creative too! There is so many creative art/creative ways to make things look like pixel art! Still they won't be accepted in our gallery.

Oh and btw: I did not read the description on your piece, while I did vote a NO on it. Still it looked great. Why?
Because not placing everything by hand leaves huge marks. What those were? Needless colors on weird places, mostly. I did not believe that you would have placed them there if you literally thought about if it was needed to have that pixel there, so I voted a no.
Isn't this some kind of proof that you won't ever get an exactly the same result as what you would if you had drawn from scratch?
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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 3:14am
Out of curiosity, knowing that its rescaled etc. , would you still vote no for this?


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greenraven
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 4:47am
Originally posted by sharprm

Greenraven - I'm moving house :P

[P.S. no points for saying "go already!"- I'm gone so long as no-one puts a lame argument/version of events forwad]



No point in leaving, stick around, you seem... interesting.
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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Hapiel
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 6:09am
Knowing it I would still vote no. However, in your new one I would not have been able to see it was a redux.

How many colors did you remove? and did it hurt the quality of the image?
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Larwick
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 7:13am
Whether it's a photo you took, a photo someone else took, or a picture you drew it's still rescaled and/or edited/traced. Colour reducing your own paintings and working on them is FINE, but it's not fine in a purist pixel art gallery website! It's also not as skillful as working from scratch or working using the piece as a reference. If you don't believe that i suggest you try testing the theory (even if it involves a slightly different skill, you should agree that it is widely seen as being harder work and therefore more skillful).

If you don't post a WIP animation or the original image you are not showing people your references or sources for the work. You're not giving people the ability to judge the amount of pixel art technique or work you've put into the piece. It's not right to hide this information from people (even if you simply mention that you photo reduced or used a strong reference, you're still hiding information, because people can't evaluate the effort and skill put into the piece as well as they could if they could see the references).

If you need to size reduce an image to pixel it you lack the skill to pixel the thing from the normal sized reference. Surely that speaks for itself?

Your Mozart analogy doesn't make sense. To a composer, the neatness of his musical symbols is important as long as he can understand them. But i see no relation to that and what we're discussing. Unless you see the symbols as relating to the reference, which is silly because surely a composers reference is their version of an artists reference. And i think you'll find it has the same importance in that subject.

If you think skill has more to do with realism than actual technique (ie. dither patterns) then i feel sorry for you. Sure, if you're trying to draw a realistic interpretation of something then realism is important. But what techniques you use and how you use them is just as important. What about cartoons or graphic novels? What about the old masters of cubism and expressionism? Are they not as skillful to you as someone who has traced and referenced a photograph to death using perfect colours? I exaggerate but my point still stands.

I know you found that you could post in another place and i hate to reiterate what i already said but if that website focused on purist charcoal usage, and was specifically for charcoal only drawings, you shouldn't ask for them to accept a charcoal/pencil hybrid piece from you because it goes against their rules.

And yes I did think you gave a sh*t. I still think youíre an alright guy, but the fact youíre still trying to hold on to this argument is frustrating.

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sharprm
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 4:55pm
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Larwick -
 
"If you think skill has more to do with realism than actual technique (ie. dither patterns) then i feel sorry for you." thats what i was trying to get at with the mozart analogy.
 
Impressionists are lazy painters. Cubism-ists are retarded painters. I don't even know what expressionism is. Renaissance, marvel comics etc. are the only masters.
 
I'm still holding the argument because I am right. 'Pure pixel art' is not as good (for realistic things) as color reduced art [from this first experiment imo].
 
 
2nd picture is the one that was submitted and rejected ( I think that is pixel art and should not have been rejected). 3rd one is a further color reduction and some more clean-up. The 3rd one is an attempt to get to this pure pixel art ideal by using number of colors, ramps that may have been chosen if done from scratch. Even if it aint pixel art, I think 2nd one is better than something I could do from scratch. Although you are right doing one from scratch would be the best way to settle the argument.
 
I'm done.
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by sharprm

I'm still holding the argument because I am right.


Actually you're wrong. For one simple reason: The mods say you're wrong. If they say that the world is flat, then for so long as you come to this site the world shall and always will be, flat.

I shall now go back to the shadows, and let you continue.
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 5:43pm
Alrighty gang, I'm closing this thread.

sharprm: should you stick to your word and choose to leave this site, so be it. Should you wish to stuck around and resolve this issue, please pm me and we'll work it out. This bantering and childish behaviour is not getting you anywhere. Saying "I'm right and you're wrong" is not the end all be all to an argument.

So again, you have the two options: leave or pm me to resolve this issue. Should I keep seeing more whining about this subject, I'll find a way to end it myself. PixelJoint is not a facist community but there are certain code of conduct rules and, should I see fit, I will exert my authority in a justified manner.

The End.
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