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Helm
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Quote Helm Replybullet Topic: hi, about a collab with blu
    Posted: 07 October 2009 at 2:06pm
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/47057.htm 

blu's given permission so I don't see the problem, but in any case I changed the art so it's just my part of it and the collaboration linked in the comment of the piece. Can some dilligent moderator tell me if it's alright now, and if so, put it up?

Actually I think I realize how collab pieces don't jive with the rankings of the art. A solution I'd suggest is to allow to mark when pieces are collabs so they don't get rated (though can still be favoured). That's how I'd solve it personally. Not allowing collabs at all unless perhaps through some new pixeljoint account is a killjoy pretty much.


Edited by Helm - 07 October 2009 at 2:18pm
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greenraven
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Quote greenraven Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 3:28pm
Actually, the whole "joint collab account" thing has been blown to hell. Forgot who, but there was a whole uproar last time two people created a collab piece.

And how the hell is this your first and only post after being here for so long? O_O
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 3:36pm
The collab thing has dragged on far too long. It really needs to be sorted out. Honestly, the original system, where two or more artists would decide whose account to upload it to, was not broken at all. Clearly the artists involved didn't mind. Then iLKke and jamon made their collab account, and again, I don't think anyone was unhappy.

The change was, if I recall correctly, framed like "hang on guys, we know this isn't really a big deal, but we want things to be a bit smoother, so give us a week or two to implement a new system". A fine and noble thing to do, preemptively fixing potential problems, but that was, what, 2 years ago? Just go back to the old non-system. No one was complaining. When you're really ready to implement the change within two weeks we'll be prepared to wait again.
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 3:53pm
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/47057.htm
Originally posted by Helm

...blu's given permission so I don't see the problem,...


We do.

Originally posted by Helm

...but in any case I changed the art so it's just my part of it and the collaboration linked in the comment of the piece.


This is completely the right way to go about collabs of any type. Thank you.

Originally posted by Helm

Can some dilligent moderator tell me if it's alright now, and if so, put it up?


It is and yes.

Originally posted by Helm

Actually I think I realize how collab pieces don't jive with the rankings of the art.


This is the entire issue at hand and the reason for not allowing them. PJ member galleries showcase their own work. Everyone works equally hard on their pieces regardless of skill.

PJ has a monthly Top10 and collabs opens up a nasty can of worms. What if your version tops blue's this month? Would this be because its 'you'? If this is even mentioned by one person then we are 'elitists, playing favorites'. You have to acknowledge that this is not a good territory to enter.
Should you be flamed for free-loading off his idea and getting faves? Of course not. Its a collab. Almost any situation opens up a can of worms we rather not deal with when it is so avoidable and you have mentioned the best solution of posting your own work and linking to the collab piece.
It has been mentioned that collabs could and perhaps should be admitted based on 'who' is involved. This of course, to me, is the worst possible thing if we are to maintain a fair attitude around here.
Lastly, it would be demoralizing to others if collabs get Top10s. No matter how awesome a collab piece is, if it steals someone's trophy at the end of the month it would simply be unfair. No?

Originally posted by Helm

A solution I'd suggest is to allow to mark when pieces are collabs so they don't get rated (though can still be favoured). That's how I'd solve it personally.


This, like others we have received, is a good solution. We are currently developing PJv3 and perhaps this touchy subject will be addressed when its complete. Of many things that can be improved this one remains completely unresolved because the loopholes that can be found are endless.
 
Originally posted by Helm

Not allowing collabs at all unless perhaps through some new pixeljoint account is a killjoy pretty much.


Well, multiple accounts will get one banned, as per our current rules.

_________
E:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixels/new_icons.asp?dosearch=1&ob=search&dint=&d=4/1/2008
The list order has changed over time but that single collab piece robbed 10 members of their trophy and especially raped the person who came in at 11th place. Trophies may not be a big deal to some, but it is to others. Denying one person of theirs is entirely uncool and, again, unfair.

That piece was only allowed in because 'mob' behaviour flooded the staff by mostly private PM communications and was so utterly uncool that frankly I lost respect for many from that situation. It resolved nothing, it did not change the world, we all collectively did not fall on our asses in awe. It only robbed one person (11th place) of their due for their efforts and work. Completely unfair. This is how I felt then, this is how I feel now. This is how I'll continue to feel on the matter.

The solution to this that helm has done with his collab today to me is 100% correct and the way to handle collabs in the PJ gallery.




Edited by jalonso - 07 October 2009 at 4:14pm
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 4:22pm
Did anyone ever actually complain? Why is a collab any less deserving of a spot on the top 10? How is it "robbing"?
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Hatch

Did anyone ever actually complain?


Yes!

Originally posted by Hatch

Why is a collab any less deserving of a spot on the top 10? How is it "robbing"?


It is not is it's not deserving if the site was able to handle several forms of voting systems. Therefore it robs anyone who worked alone on their own piece, in any given month.

When more than one artist work together what is being judged exactly? When viewing solo work its clear, technique, concept, idea, colors, etc. You can clearly evaluate what is good, bad about it.

If two people work together and one does some crappy AA in a section and the other fixes it. It looks awesome but who did what? Its just a can of worms, ya noes.

With keeping the gallery solo works we can comment of what they can improve or what skills can be helped along to their personal improvement. If 2 can collab why not 10 people on one piece? What then?

Technically speaking any game project is a collab. How can we then say its not cool to show your enemy sprite in a mockup where the BG and the animations are made by others.

Its simply a can of worms to me :\

If there is one thing the PJ community is great at, its finding loopholes to anything and everything.


Edited by jalonso - 07 October 2009 at 4:34pm
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 5:03pm
I was gonna spout off about my personal opinion of collabs as they relate to the rating system, but I realized just in time that it makes zero difference. Instead I have this to say: It's possible I'm misreading the pixeljoint zeitgeist, but it just seems to me that the complaints of a few have been put ahead of the wishes of the many in this case.

How many complaints were there about the original non-system? How many complaints have there been about the complete prohibition of collabs as a result of those complaints? Did the decision have a net beneficial result? These questions are not meant as rhetorical. In the absence of a permanent solution, a temporary solution must be developed that can be implemented IMMEDIATELY with the existing tools that satisfies as many members as possible. I don' think the current situation is that solution.


Edited by Hatch - 07 October 2009 at 5:03pm
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Frost
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Quote Frost Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 5:36pm
Thumbs up for giving joy to all who want to create something together with others and share their work... not!

Edited by Frost - 07 October 2009 at 6:22pm
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AdamF
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Quote AdamF Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 6:57pm
I'm sorry, but I'm totally against NOT allowing collabs here at PJ. Collabs are works of art too, and heck, they are normally just for fun and such. Helm makes a good point- don't make them be rated. Then your Top10 would be 'fair.'

It's just kind of crazy in my opinion to say collabs 'rob' others of their work- the artists who work on the collab work just as hard, I mean really, half the time the artist's styles might not even match and there might have to be even more work done to fix that!

If anything, the new system should show the piece in both of the collaborator's galleries and only once in the Weekly Showcase and such.

I just don't think it's fair to not let someone post something they and another spent valuable time on and want to share with others to see what they think and just have a good time! Art is about expression, right?
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Adarias
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Quote Adarias Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 7:51pm
Collaboration neither implies nor denies improvement so the direct arguments against are unfounded.

However, the indirect arguments (that people are bitching) ARE valid.  More people will bitch about the supposed unfairness of collaborations that people who will bitch about their collabs being rejected.

I've always been of the opinion that 99% of pixeljoint problems are the direct result of the rating system and not the artwork, but that's not going to change.

There are a million places for collab pieces so it would be sad to see them barred but that's the mods' choice.  It's not like this is a universe-wide ban :).


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Helm
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Quote Helm Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 3:34am
Art isn't a competition for me (which is why I don't enter them on pixeljoint either) so I for one am really not interested in getting my art rated against the art of others (this is why I don't feel that selecting favourites is a problem, but perhaps rating pieces so that one comes out on top on a given week, might be). The solution I propose as far as collabs go, rests on the assumption that people that upload collabs do it to share the joy, not so they can 'dominate the charts'. I realize that pixeljoint won't change the rating concept any time soon. If there are problems however with such things and the pixeljoint userbase is as you say adept at finding and exploiting loopholes, then that's the attitude that an artistic competitive system creates.

(Edit) to make my point clearer I'll rephrase so: if the administration is second-guessing crafty users in attempting to dominate the charts, it means it's passively condoning that same mentality. In the opposite if they would let some people bitch, then they'd eventually stop bitching, and people could upload their collabs.

greenraven : I don't post on pixeljoint because I don't have time for both forums. Pixelation's my home.


Edited by Helm - 08 October 2009 at 3:45am
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Quote Manupix Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 4:06am
Simple solution: allow collabs in without any possibility of ratings, tops and such.
Better: allow collabs in and have a separate ratings and tops system for them.

Before this thread I was user-side-upset by the no-collab policy; jal's posts made admin-side reasons clear: thanks.
Still, denying some art on an art website is a main issue, a solution has to be implemented.

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Quote ekobor Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 6:35am
Hi... I know I'm  not really an important person on here, but I thought that maybe you wouldn't mind hearing my take on things? If you do mind, feel free to ignore me. ^^;;

On Collaborations
Collaborations are an intriguing section of art, that this site isn't built to handle. The current 'non-system' (as I believe Hatch called it) is working, in so far as allowing people to do collab.s for their own amusement, without much intent of showing them to others.

The methods towards 'correcting' this have been posited as
a) Removing the rating system from all collaboration pieces
    This might not be, but seems to be, a largely coding issue. It seems to me that coding the system in order to keep ratings off of certain pieces would be unnecessarily hard.

b) a separate rating system
    This also seems rather convoluted, and would likely cause confusion en masse.
c) people use a different site
   Not really a solution, ne?

So the solution I would put forth, fully realising that it would likely be an expensive endevour, is to go so far as create a different gallery entirely.
By keeping single artist works fully separate from multi artist works, there would be rather less confusion about how to rate a piece.
This would pull in the separate rating system, on account of being disticntly separate, yet formatted similarily to, the current gallery.
By doing this collabs would be encouraged, which I have found is a great way to grow as an artist.  

The inheirent problem would be how to connect a piece to multiple artists, which I presume would be a coding nightmare. But as I know only rudimentary coding, I'll give my common-sense idea, and hope it doesn't sound too insane.
  
I would put forth that if the system were to allow an artist to post the collab, and then enter in a field the usernames of the other artists, the system could recognise these additions and attach the piece to the personal gallery of each user.

I would go more in depth with my thoughts, but alas, I have run out of time here at school, and you, (if in fact you have read this far) are likely bored and are wishing for me to stop.

Good day~
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 8:39am
Originally posted by ekobor

Hi... I know I'm  not really an important person on here..


You are important here as anyone else! You pixel, comment in the gallery, rate and like the post above, get involved.
____________





Edited by jalonso - 08 October 2009 at 8:39am
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 10:09am
To clarify, I refer to before the prohibition as the non-system. There are no collabs now, and so there is no system, not even a non-system.

Anyhow, ekobor makes some fine suggestions. Many people have. A lot of solutions have been proposed to the problem, but none that don't require a good deal of coding on the back end, and since the site hasn't received any obvious updates in over a year it's unlikely that these solutions are going to be implemented any time soon. Again, a temporary solution needs to be devised that can be implemented immediately. The current situation is not good. A lot of people are very unhappy and it's damaging the site. I find it hard to believe that the prohibition of collabs was a net positive, judging from the number of people that have voiced their displeasure with the decision.

Edited by Hatch - 08 October 2009 at 10:09am
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 10:53am
OT... (kinda):

PJ operates at a loss ($) every month since day one.
Instead of changes, upgrades and suggestions to appease the community regarding what Pixeljoint can you for you, it would be awesome, not to mention an eventual critical situation, if we diverted our energy to developing enough revenue to pay for the continued existence of Pixeljoint. Many might have complaints and other grievances with PJ but I think its safe to assume that complaints, grievances and differences of opinions occur on any site.

Many things might seem an easy enough fix here but, behind the scenes there are many things that occur and take time from those who keep things running. Nobody above this comment contributes money to pay for servers. Nobody is endlessly verifing reports, looking for evidence of those who cheat, rip and answering questions for people that range from the silly to the serious and time consuming kind. The battle against spam, the constant incoming pixelart evaluations (which, btw, we miss something here and there occasionally and BOOM!... we get hell for it). Developing challenges to keep everyone motivated, the list is endless... We do not complain about these things. We who run the site like to pixel ourselves too.

As adarias mentioned, the collab ban is not Universal, and there are many other places for this. You can work around this here by showing your work and linking to collabs, like helm just did.

Honestly guys, we are fighting to keep PJ alive.

The current situation is not good
. - Hatch

* It could be worse and without member support it will be even worse.
** Not every Mod is anti-collab submissions.
*** I'm exhausted and will no longer continue to follow this thread. but I have to... :|


E:

Records indicate that the collab section of the forum is the least used and has been in existence since day one. I see no need to get 'wiper fluid' when the engine needs repairs


Edited by jalonso - 08 October 2009 at 11:07am
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Hatch
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Quote Hatch Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 11:21am
I was speaking honestly and plainly about what I've perceived. I'm sorry if it put you on the defensive. I was only doing so because I care about PixelJoint and its members. I don't do collabs (I tried one once and it didn't go well) and so I don't have horse in this race, but lot of people do and it's them I'm speaking for (perhaps they don't want me to).

What I said was never meant as a condemnation of you or the staff or the moderating team. As I've said in other places, no one here as any right to demand anything from the PJ staff for the reasons you mentioned. But that doesn't mean we can't have an honest and frank discussion about perceived problems with the site. Again, my posts were never meant to be insulting or belittling to anyone who works behind the scenes. My only goal is to do what little I can to help find a better way forward for the site regarding this issue. Please take my posts in the spirit they were intended: support and honesty, not bitterness and acidity.

Originally posted by jalonso

Nobody is endlessly verifing reports, looking for evidence of those who cheat... [etc]

I've told you privately I'm ready and willing.

Originally posted by jalonso

As adarias mentioned, the collab ban is not Universal, and there are many other places for this. You can work around this here by showing your work and linking to collabs, like helm just did.

But I like it here, as do many other members. That's why they're upset about the collab system here. Also, in many cases it's not possible to separate out your work from another's in a collab as Helm did.
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Quote greenraven Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 11:26am
Originally posted by jalonso

Many things might seem an easy enough fix here but, behind the scenes there are many things that occur and take time from those who keep things running. Nobody above this comment contributes money to pay for servers. Nobody is endlessly verifing reports, looking for evidence of those who cheat, rip and answering questions for people that range from the silly to the serious and time consuming kind. The battle against spam, the constant incoming pixelart evaluations (which, btw, we miss something here and there occasionally and BOOM!... we get hell for it). Developing challenges to keep everyone motivated, the list is endless... We do not complain about these things. We who run the site like to pixel ourselves too.

Seems to me like you guys are a bit disorganized.

Why not recruit more staff. And instead of having everyone running around frantically trying to do everything, compartmentalize and sort tasks out. Staff members A, B, and C are in charge of overseeing the queue. Staff members D, E, and F are on the lookout for rips and other unwholesomeness. Staff members E, F, and G are making sure the site is kept running with up to date software. Etc...

Dividing up tasks will lighten the load for each individual staffer, and make them more focused on their assigned task. Theoretically.

Originally posted by jalonso

*** I'm exhausted and will no longer continue to follow this thread.

Is it me or is jal the only person with any sort of authority that has a heartbeat lately? Seems like we don't really hear much from any other staffer other than jal these days.

And yes, I know people have lives. But I'm just saying that through the eyes of the peons it looks like we're starting to run a captainless ship here. Hell, I don't even remember the last thing I saw sedge post aside from the occasional random youtube video. I'm not even going to bother mentioning ghosts like Anlina or Ens. o_o

(Cookiecutter points to anyone who can name the ghosts of PJ past. XD)
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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jalonso
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Quote jalonso Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 11:34am
@Hatch - My bad 
All my comments have been intended to read generically and not at any one individual. You are awesome and you do everything you can, we know this.
The original reply to this thread by me wasn't even intended as a reply to helm specifically. I have intended everything I've said here for all who have read or followed along.
I've developed a habit of replying in generic terms to everything to minimize the amount of times I find myself repeating myself. Hasn't helped or worked but I keep trying.

In roughly 2 week's time someone will PM me with something along the lines of...'Hey, why don't you allow collabs?'
I will then come to this thread and copy/paste what I've said...say something encouraging, polite and motivational send, and then get back to my own art and life.
(LOOP)


Edited by jalonso - 08 October 2009 at 11:36am
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Quote ekobor Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 1:45pm
Ahh, I wish I had had time earlier to finish my post, because as it stands now, it sounds very much like I am calling for a reformation of the entire site. (!!)

I do understand that this site must be expensive to run, and that the time of those running it is very precious.
I merely put forth my thoughts as, perhaps, an eventual goal.

In the short term, I believe the status quo is effective enough. I had this more drawn out and explanatory a few hours ago, but alas, it has flown straight out of my head.

Is there a way to donate to this site? In my short travels here I have not noticed, though it is likely quite obvious.

E
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Quote tripnfelt Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2009 at 12:28am
I like collabs because they can lead to better pictures in the gallery for me to study the techniques of, and create a higher standard on the site to shoot for, I see PJ as more of an online art gallery and learning forum than a competition site but I also like ratings as they help me find the good sh!t. I always rate based on the quality of the final art piece not the artist or number of artists who made it or how long they say it took.

The piece in question I'd rate as a 6 for the whole thing, blumunkee's would get a 6 as well, wheras Helms girl by herself would get a 4. I may not have been curious enough to check out the awesome complete image in the description either as it's not so striking alone - but I did and seeing that is was part of the sweet collab I'd give it another point for 5.

How much of a monthly loss does PJ make? The domain value and traffic seems like it would be able to make an easy profit from advertising. I occasionally click the ads here that interest me.
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Quote greenraven Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2009 at 3:59am
Originally posted by ekobor

Is there a way to donate to this site? In my short travels here I have not noticed, though it is likely quite obvious.

E

Yes, yes there is.
"pwnage comes with patience, practice and planning." ~ Jalonso   
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Quote ekobor Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2009 at 11:37pm
Oh, thank you greenraven!
I will be sure to do so when my paycheck comes in~
I most definitely want to support this place~
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