How to predict wasted effort in WIP threads?
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URL: https://pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19922
Printed Date: 09 September 2025 at 5:03am
Topic: How to predict wasted effort in WIP threads?
Posted By: 0xDB
Subject: How to predict wasted effort in WIP threads?
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 2:29am
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I have seen this happening over and over again(not just here, elsewhere as well): New Joe/Jane enters board, starts a couple of topics "this is my x-th pixel art, help/hints plz kthxbye" or similar.
People then give feedback for nothing as Joe/Jane never bothers to ever work on their stuff again and never replies to their thread(s) or just shoots down all feedback with "but I... this and that and whatnot" excuses. How does one detect if new Joe/Jane is serious about their stuff? How do you predict if helping is going to be a waste of your time? Any ideas? |
Replies:
Posted By: cure
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 7:32am
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You waste advice on them, they sh*t on your advice, and then you know not to waste your time on them in the future.
Generally I just avoid advising uber-noobs or people who haven't shown effort in the form of major edits or updates. You can always give verbal advice but withhold an edit until they've shown a willingness to accept criticism. There's no sure-fire way to know your time won't be wasted. That's just the way it goes. I've made many lovely edits that noobs have ignored completely, or understood poorly. |
Posted By: jtfjtfjtf
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 7:50am
| Sometimes I like to ask a question to their question. |
Posted By: AlexHW
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 9:14am
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It's not a total waste, because other people besides the thread starter might read your advice and gain something from it. So even if they choose not to follow it, others might consider it when they work on their own stuff. Also, not every bit of critique is going to match the goals and intents of the artist. I think writing tutorials would be an alternative option to critiquing that wouldn't have the feeling you're wasting time (because what you write would be appreciated more rather than shot down since those reading it would have searched for it). |
Posted By: 0xDB
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 9:35am
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@cure: How does the avoiding to advise uber-noobs in practice work? Do you look at post-count or reply-count and in general just don't advise anyone below a certain number of posts/replies?
@jtfjtfjtf: What kind of questions do you ask? Is there a certain pattern or logic behind them? @Alex: Good points. I completely forgot to think about everyone else who might read the advice. Writing tutorials seems like a good idea too. |
Posted By: jtfjtfjtf
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 10:00am
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It depends on the information initially given. If it's very broad like "help me with my piece" questions like what's your artistic background, what are your goals with the piece, do you have a specific thing that's bothering you can be helpful. It sets up a dialogue and it can also act as a filter to see if the person will even respond to the questions. I also don't think trying to help someone in WiP is a waste of time. As Alex said it can be useful to someone else, it can also be useful for yourself, and it makes the community feel like a helpful place overall. |
Posted By: jtfjtfjtf
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 10:24am
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As for edits, I don't like to edit too much unless the person is really having trouble with the written stuff. I've seen people take really awesome edits, do minor changes so it's not a copy and integrate it into their final piece without understanding what's going on or why the editor made the decisions they made. The final piece looks good but it's detrimental to their development as an artist. |
Posted By: cure
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 10:33am
| @Dennis: I look at their work. If they don't understand the fundamentals, mindlessly copying my edit won't help them much. The best thing for them is independent study, or letting someone closer to their skill level and with more free time help instead. |
Posted By: 0xDB
Date Posted: 11 October 2014 at 10:56pm
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Hm, yes, makes sense. I personally think my own skill level is somewhat average, which is why I think what jtfjtfjtf said about edits being helpful to myself as well is interesting, as while I work on an edit to improve someone else's piece, my own skill is trained as well.
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on this. ------------- http://www.dennisbusch.de/index.php - 0xDB | https://twitter.com/dennisbusch_de - twitter |
Posted By: PixelSnader
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 3:19pm
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I don't predict these kinds of things. I just make edits when I feel like it and see where it goes. I could retro-actively explain this as being more fair or less prone to discrimination (on gender/age/topic/quality/whatever) but in all honesty I just don't really want to bother figuring out whether or not a person will be 'wasted effort'.
I just do edits because I feel I can help the work, and because I feel like editing that piece; it's (at least partially) my recreational time, after all. Plus, like several others said, someone else might be able to learn from the edit anyway. I do, however, try to read and remember who uses feedback and who doesn't. Those who merely handwave criticism (be it mine or someone else's) or ignore it completely will either not get any feedback, or get angry feedback regarding the lack of implementation of previous feedback. ------------- ▄▄█ ▄▄█ ▄█▄ ▄█▄ |
Posted By: JustinGameDesign
Date Posted: 15 October 2014 at 10:34am
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It's also worth noting that a person who receives an edit may not even be capable of implementing the techniques shown to them in that edit. I've had this happen. Someone shows me a nice edit, which I appreciate, I try to make something similar, it comes out worse than my original, and after repeated efforts I decide that it's best to table the issue for the present. It doesn't mean a person's not learning, they're just not yet succeeding, and they may or may not advertise their lack of success. Hopefully, they at least express gratitude though. |
Posted By: 0xDB
Date Posted: 20 October 2014 at 3:20am
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Originally posted by PixelSnader That's a good strategy in theory though if I were to do that, I'd have to keep a list of names somewhere as I easily forget. So I probably should not worry about this at all and do like you wrote before and pick where to edit/help purely based on whether I'm in the mood for it.
I do, however, try to read and remember who uses feedback and who doesn't. Those who merely handwave criticism (be it mine or someone else's) or ignore it completely will either not get any feedback, or get angry feedback regarding the lack of implementation of previous feedback. Originally posted by JustinGameDesign True, all the more reason to primarily edit for ones own growth first and have the other person learn from it merely as a nice bonus. In a way that seems selfish and pretentious but it protects one from wasting time and its not really selfish for others may benefit from it as well.
It's also worth noting that a person who receives an edit may not even be capable of implementing the techniques shown to them in that edit. ------------- http://www.dennisbusch.de/index.php - 0xDB | https://twitter.com/dennisbusch_de - twitter |
Posted By: Æslet
Date Posted: 09 November 2014 at 5:47am
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I maybe be the newbienoob, someone is talking about.
People learn a lot a diffrent ways, what might be a good advice for someone, could be very bad for another. I only learn by my faults and it is pretty hard way to learn, when you only can sh*t people's advice, because it is more confusing you, rather than helping. |
Posted By: Mosst
Date Posted: 14 November 2014 at 2:07pm
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Currently in that position, though I got advice and it really helped me it was only from two people but two is more than I needed. It's nice to know what everyone else is thinking though.
I guess you can tell when they take your advice and give you their thanks 
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Posted By: Volrak_Rutra
Date Posted: 01 December 2014 at 12:20pm
| I have faced the opposite problem. As a noob, I posted several WIPs in the challenge threads, and there was no feedback whatsoever. So I just stopped posting WIPs hoping for crits and feedback, and just figure stuff out on my own. |
Posted By: jalonso
Date Posted: 01 December 2014 at 2:00pm
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Originally posted by Volrak_Rutra I have faced the opposite problem. As a noob, I posted several WIPs in the challenge threads, and there was no feedback whatsoever. So I just stopped posting WIPs hoping for crits and feedback, and just figure stuff out on my own. In PJ c+c is freely given and few get no replies. You do have to pose a question or state your concern because those that get nothing are usually those who post with too little info. For example, a pixel and a 'What should I do?' kinda post is not going to get much. PJers would rather pixel  Figuring stuff on your own is a good thing tho. Its like that time someone* posted a report about not being able to login to the forum and I PMd and emailed trying to help and then left the report for follow up. Later I PMd to ask again and got nothing and then another week or two later I see this person* posting all kinds of stuff in the forum never having replied to me...it happens  *U ------------- |
Posted By: Volrak_Rutra
Date Posted: 02 December 2014 at 4:38pm
| sometimes one may just want a general feedback, there might be no particular questions one has in mind, but somebody else might notice something off, or something that can work better. so i usually don't ask questions unless i feel stuck and i know where exactly i am stuck. but sometimes i am stuck and have no idea with what exactly. |
Posted By: MrHai
Date Posted: 03 December 2014 at 7:03pm
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The less specific you are about what you want help with, the harder it is to give meaningful feedback. PJ is a forum, not a school. There are no teachers here with a professional interest in guiding others' growth*. Luckily there are some heroes frequenting these boards that sometimes take out substantial time of their day to offer up thoughtful and indepth critique, but in general, if your problem is too general and thus requires a lot of effort to give a considered and perhaps even pedagogical answer to, you can't expect much response.
I don't mean to say it's wrong and you shouldn't do it. I've done it myself, simply posting a piece to see what comments trickle in. But if your problem is a very general one, the only sure way of reaching a solution is to work on it yourself, and I'll posit that most of the time you'll learn more that way too. It's frustrating, and I'm sure we've all had times when we wished someone would just tell us what to do, but we stick at it, and that's how we get better. I also think that even if you "don't know what's wrong", you can still arrive at one specific problem/question (or a set of them) if you try analyzing what parts of the piece you're unhappy with. I know it's hard, both to recognize what exactly it is you're struggling with, and then to formulate it, but that's good practice for any artist. *(unless there are people gaming the forums for pixelart talent, which is a weird, conspiratorial thought) /end tangent ------------- "Work is more fun than fun" -John Cale |
Posted By: Volrak_Rutra
Date Posted: 04 December 2014 at 1:17pm
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...said the guy with 2 pixel art pieces within last 6.5 years )) lol jk Seriously though, I guess I need to be more specific with my concerns, however, I still wouldn't want people to hold back from telling me that something is not working which I might have not noticed. |
Posted By: MrHai
Date Posted: 04 December 2014 at 3:46pm
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I haven't been on PJ or indeed been pixeling for long, but this is true for any art forum in my experience :)
Just to clarify, my point wasn't to tell people what to do, but to inform any beginners that might read this how this art forum dynamic typically works, so they don't feel too discouraged if their very general problem in the WIP section goes unanswered. ------------- "Work is more fun than fun" -John Cale |
Posted By: Volrak_Rutra
Date Posted: 15 December 2014 at 8:21pm
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once again, i posted my WIP in challenge thread, i asked questions, i wondered about things, and i got zero feedback from anyone. am i asking incorrectly? is my art so bad, that people just avoid it? i dunno. |
Posted By: Æslet
Date Posted: 12 January 2015 at 9:56am
| If people don't give feedback, I take it as I was right about it. To be silent is same as agree. |
Posted By: eishiya
Date Posted: 12 January 2015 at 11:18am
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Originally posted by Æslet If people don't give feedback, I take it as I was right about it. To be silent is same as agree. I think this can be right sometimes, but it's a dangerous thing to assume all the time. Plus, saying something looks good is easy, so people often leave positive comments on good-looking works, even if they're WIPs. Giving good feedback is tough, so not getting a response might mean you have problems with no easy answers. I like giving critique, but with some threads, I end up not posting anything because there's so much or something so fundamental wrong I don't know how to point the issues out without sounding like a jerk. Another common reason people are silent is because the artist isn't clear about what they want out of the piece. Many problems have lots of possible solutions that depend on the artist's goals, which can result in either of two scenarios: A. The thread gets lots of conflicting replies that leave the artist going in circles and not getting any closer to their goal B. The thread gets no/few replies because the would-be critics don't want to give feedback if they're not sure that it'll bring the artist closer to their unstated goal. Often, the silent threads have a little of both - unclear goals on top of far-reaching fundamental problems. It's easy to be overwhelmed and not post anything. |
Posted By: PixelSnader
Date Posted: 12 January 2015 at 11:44am
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Or there is too much wrong. Or people can't explain what's wrong. Or they're not very interested.
A graph from another art board gives an interesting perspective; 
At first, most people can critique the basics and point to rudimentary tutorials (don't pillowshade! more contrast! look at anatomy!) Then there is a dip where some feel unsure if they are good enough to C&C, and where others still see too many issues. Then there are good pieces with small details that people like to point out. ------------- ▄▄█ ▄▄█ ▄█▄ ▄█▄ |
Posted By: Iscalio
Date Posted: 18 January 2015 at 11:07am
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Maybe those people may store this critique information away and use it in their next project?
I find I sometimes know there are problems with my work, and when a variety of people with a variety of experience critique without me necessarily asking for it I may note it but not follow up on fixes from hosts of different (possibly contradictory) viewpoints. I hope, having a 4 year art degree and having worked on a bunch of student games and a little in the industry, that I can at least see if the criticism seems legitimate and keep track of it for next time. If I made a WIP thread I might well resist going back to a previous development state to fix something if I thought it wouldn't be worth that commitment of time. |
Posted By: Drunk Shaman
Date Posted: 19 January 2015 at 11:05am
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So how many of you guys are from Polycount? They made this chart because there arent many critiques there. If you require them, try your luck because most of the time the only people who get any comment / critique are the ones who make people drool with their art. The other ones who truly require critiques, get shoved. Now the last time we discussed, the admins claim that critiquing someone's work requires time and effort (although it is hard to understand how come they have time to write walls and walls of text towards the arts that doesnt require any sort of appreciation nor any sort of critique (AT ALL!!,) where as the ones that require critiques get ignored.)
Question is; Whom do you see potential in; I came across this guy who's workflow was sound but the art was horrible and we all tried our level best to help him out but that person would take serious offense if we critique his work. Another one who seriously required critiques didnt get many and the ones that he got was not as precise, as he started questioning the critiques because he failed to understand them, the other members told him to "START OVER!!," or "DO THIS PIECE SOME JUSTICE AND START OVER!!," which was and has always been the worst advice one can ever give. Personally me; I see the person who shows the effort posts his WIP update and if the stuff that hasnt been fixed nor has been questioned in relevance to the critique he has gotten and requires some more detail regarding it, is not the one. If he does, then he is. There isnt a complex logic to this pattern and you can not run after the ones who do not want to listen. |