You waste advice on them, they sh*t on your advice, and then you know not to waste your time on them in the future.

Generally I just avoid advising uber-noobs or people who haven't shown effort in the form of major edits or updates. You can always give verbal advice but withhold an edit until they've shown a willingness to accept criticism.

There's no sure-fire way to know your time won't be wasted. That's just the way it goes. I've made many lovely edits that noobs have ignored completely, or understood poorly.

It's not a total waste, because other people besides the thread starter might read your advice and gain something from it. So even if they choose not to follow it, others might consider it when they work on their own stuff.
Also, not every bit of critique is going to match the goals and intents of the artist.
I think writing tutorials would be an alternative option to critiquing that wouldn't have the feeling you're wasting time (because what you write would be appreciated more rather than shot down since those reading it would have searched for it).

It depends on the information initially given. If it's very broad like "help me with my piece" questions like what's your artistic background, what are your goals with the piece, do you have a specific thing that's bothering you can be helpful. It sets up a dialogue and it can also act as a filter to see if the person will even respond to the questions.

I also don't think trying to help someone in WiP is a waste of time. As Alex said it can be useful to someone else, it can also be useful for yourself, and it makes the community feel like a helpful place overall.

@Dennis: I look at their work. If they don't understand the fundamentals, mindlessly copying my edit won't help them much. The best thing for them is independent study, or letting someone closer to their skill level and with more free time help instead.

I don't predict these kinds of things. I just make edits when I feel like it and see where it goes. I could retro-actively explain this as being more fair or less prone to discrimination (on gender/age/topic/quality/whatever) but in all honesty I just don't really want to bother figuring out whether or not a person will be 'wasted effort'.

I just do edits because I feel I can help the work, and because I feel like editing that piece; it's (at least partially) my recreational time, after all. Plus, like several others said, someone else might be able to learn from the edit anyway.

I do, however, try to read and remember who uses feedback and who doesn't. Those who merely handwave criticism (be it mine or someone else's) or ignore it completely will either not get any feedback, or get angry feedback regarding the lack of implementation of previous feedback.

That's a good strategy in theory though if I were to do that, I'd have to keep a list of names somewhere as I easily forget. So I probably should not worry about this at all and do like you wrote before and pick where to edit/help purely based on whether I'm in the mood for it.

True, all the more reason to primarily edit for ones own growth first and have the other person learn from it merely as a nice bonus. In a way that seems selfish and pretentious but it protects one from wasting time and its not really selfish for others may benefit from it as well.

Currently in that position, though I got advice and it really helped me it was only from two people but two is more than I needed. It's nice to know what everyone else is thinking though.

I guess you can tell when they take your advice and give you their thanks


Edited by Mosst - 14 November 2014 at 2:10pm

In PJ c+c is freely given and few get no replies.
You do have to pose a question or state your concern because
those that get nothing are usually those who post with too little info.
For example, a pixel and a 'What should I do?' kinda post is not going to get much.
PJers would rather pixel

Figuring stuff on your own is a good thing tho.
Its like that time someone* posted a report about not being able to login to the forum and I PMd and emailed trying to help and then left the report for follow up. Later I PMd to ask again and got nothing and then another week or two later I see this person* posting all kinds of stuff in the forum never having replied to me...it happens






*U

The less specific you are about what you want help with, the harder it is to give meaningful feedback. PJ is a forum, not a school. There are no teachers here with a professional interest in guiding others' growth*. Luckily there are some heroes frequenting these boards that sometimes take out substantial time of their day to offer up thoughtful and indepth critique, but in general, if your problem is too general and thus requires a lot of effort to give a considered and perhaps even pedagogical answer to, you can't expect much response.

I don't mean to say it's wrong and you shouldn't do it. I've done it myself, simply posting a piece to see what comments trickle in. But if your problem is a very general one, the only sure way of reaching a solution is to work on it yourself, and I'll posit that most of the time you'll learn more that way too. It's frustrating, and I'm sure we've all had times when we wished someone would just tell us what to do, but we stick at it, and that's how we get better.

I also think that even if you "don't know what's wrong", you can still arrive at one specific problem/question (or a set of them) if you try analyzing what parts of the piece you're unhappy with. I know it's hard, both to recognize what exactly it is you're struggling with, and then to formulate it, but that's good practice for any artist.


*(unless there are people gaming the forums for pixelart talent, which is a weird, conspiratorial thought) /end tangent

I haven't been on PJ or indeed been pixeling for long, but this is true for any art forum in my experience :)

Just to clarify, my point wasn't to tell people what to do, but to inform any beginners that might read this how this art forum dynamic typically works, so they don't feel too discouraged if their very general problem in the WIP section goes unanswered.

If people don't give feedback, I take it as I was right about it. To be silent is same as agree.

Or there is too much wrong. Or people can't explain what's wrong. Or they're not very interested.

A graph from another art board gives an interesting perspective;


At first, most people can critique the basics and point to rudimentary tutorials (don't pillowshade! more contrast! look at anatomy!)

Then there is a dip where some feel unsure if they are good enough to C&C, and where others still see too many issues.

Then there are good pieces with small details that people like to point out.

So how many of you guys are from Polycount? They made this chart because there arent many critiques there. If you require them, try your luck because most of the time the only people who get any comment / critique are the ones who make people drool with their art. The other ones who truly require critiques, get shoved. Now the last time we discussed, the admins claim that critiquing someone's work requires time and effort (although it is hard to understand how come they have time to write walls and walls of text towards the arts that doesnt require any sort of appreciation nor any sort of critique (AT ALL!!,) where as the ones that require critiques get ignored.)

Question is; Whom do you see potential in; I came across this guy who's workflow was sound but the art was horrible and we all tried our level best to help him out but that person would take serious offense if we critique his work.

Another one who seriously required critiques didnt get many and the ones that he got was not as precise, as he started questioning the critiques because he failed to understand them, the other members told him to "START OVER!!," or "DO THIS PIECE SOME JUSTICE AND START OVER!!," which was and has always been the worst advice one can ever give.

Personally me; I see the person who shows the effort posts his WIP update and if the stuff that hasnt been fixed nor has been questioned in relevance to the critique he has gotten and requires some more detail regarding it, is not the one. If he does, then he is.

There isnt a complex logic to this pattern and you can not run after the ones who do not want to listen.

Edited by nitewalkr - 19 January 2015 at 11:09am