Could just be me...but I feel like I have returned to quite a more hostile forum than the one I left. It seems like the amount of n00b bashing, and general arguments on Pixel Joint has grown considerably, to the extent where it creates a foreboding overtone to the experience.

Does anyone else feel the same? Why can't we all just get along?


Edited by EyeCraft - 13 October 2006 at 7:58am

While its true that from time to time things flare up. I don't agree its too harsh around here. Its not top quality art that's expected, but top quality behavior and attitude. It is frustrating to offer comments that go ignored, and WIPs that are abandoned quickly. Among other things.

this forum is no different towards noobs than Pixelation. What matters it the maturity of the noob towards accpeting feedback and actually updating/editing their piece. Most noobs that come here post a piece for critique, receive some helpful ones, then do nothing or upload it to the main site without changing anything.
A person is only going to survive here if they want to improve and try new things. Of course, there's a certain large number of people here that just want to chat in the OT thread and that's okay too.

I don't think much quality is actually required from our n00bs. I think the most important from our n00bs, is that they are mature.

I wouldn't regard senstitivity as maturity. People who don't know how to post their art without taking comments personally, only wanting people to say how good they are not not pointing out the mistakes they made, are immature about their own art. To join Pixeljoint, I think, you've got to want to take your art both seriously and not seriously at the same time. You want to take it seriously enough to want to improve, but not so serious that you get offended by people who mention that you've shaded something wrong. It's a good balance, I think.

And it's a wise thing to have in any artistically driven forum. I think art breeds critique, and if you don't want critique, keep your art to yourself, you know?

I recently tried to join another forum (*le gasp* a dolling forum actually, against my better instincts) and I tried to give critiques and people took them personally, they thought I was being pretensious and rude, etc. And I even softened them up compared with my critiques here. They flipped out, took it personally, got offended, made a new rule banning critique unless the person posting their art wanted it and in the end I ended up getting banned for speaking my mind and refusing to follow childish and stupid rules. I think those types of people, who can't handle what people might think about their art, who don't care enough about their art to improve... closed minded people when it comes to their art, those are the types of people that won't get good reviews here at PJ, but I don't think that's because of PJ members... it's because of common sense.

I think we appreciate geniune honesty, an open mind, a willingness to learn, and a sense of humor. I don't think it's much to ask from someone who's mature.

I'm glad to be at PJ, personally. I feel like I can express my thoughts without someone telling me to be nice and coddle everyone. I don't feel bossed about or babyed, and I enjoy that. I've learned a lot from being on here about being senstitive to stuff, and I think it's made me realize how much an obstacle being sensitive is. If you take everything personally and to the heart you waste so much emotion and time you don't really need to waste.

So, do I think we're being hard on n00bs... nah.


Edited by Aleiav - 13 October 2006 at 12:04pm

I really hate giving people crits that go un heard.
I mean, I may not give the largest paragraph of pefect critique since I myself still don't have lot of things down.
But nothing pisses me off more then being brushed off like I don't know what I'm talking about at all.
As if the person who is ASKING for the critique from the forum thinks they know everything there is to know.

Why bother asking for crits if all your looking for is praise on your peice.
I suggets you take things elswhere if you're not looking to learn.
Because part of learning requires taking peoples comments into consideration and at the LEAST trying to do what others say should be done.

I've always felt that this place has some sort of strange tone about it that almost feels like a naive feeling of being high and mighty. I'm not about to tell you guys how to run the place, I like this place enough to keep returning, right? But it's not necessarily the "strictness" on noobs we have that irks me here, it's actually a really lenient place, it's actually the face people think this place is strict is what irks me.

And the fact there's so many misguided arguments on trivial or obvious things. Many people seem to feel they're experienced enough to tell a color reduction or piece with use of "dirty" tools from a pure pixelart piece and then take it upon themselves to call the artist out on it. Problem is, many miss the most obvious index painted pieces, probably because most here haven't seen real index painting and had the word to identify it and put two and two together, and then go raving about how great said piece is but moan about something like a single background cloud being a CG color reduction in a mockup.

Lately all I seem to read from people "defending" Pixeljoint (please don't take this post as an attack, it's just an observation of how I feel about this place which is something that has yet to be and probably can't be changed) is "at least we're not DA." I wish this place could bring itself up to a higher goal. It's no secret, DA blows. How about you guys strive for something other than "Hey, at least we aren't dead last."

I agree that mature behaviour is certainly a merit to be expected. In everyone.

I don't mean to attack people, but some of the defenses put forward are a little ego-centric.

Just this idea that "I'm experienced and everyone should listen to me and if they don't then its really annoying" notion, that seems to me to be a little immature. If they don't listen then they don't listen, calm yourself, is my opinion.

Then again, I haven't been directly involved in any of these situations. But why is there this hierachy structure? People sitting at the top casting down their opinions, and people at the bottom getting attacked quite alot. And yes their behaviour is immature, but does immature behaviour have to be met with immature behaviour?

Maybe it's through hazy memory, but I always regarded this forum, and Pixelation for that matter to have a flat structure, not a hierachy. Everyone is equal. If one person doesn't listen to the other, its not some defiance against the hierachy, if you get what I mean.

Blah, anyway, kind of ranting. That's just my thoughts on things...even though I've pretty much only been here for 2 days or whatever.

Oh and I definately agree that we should have a better goal than "being better than dA". Something to aspire to, not retreat from.

Wait, what happened to So-Lou??

I dont think people really get THAT offended if their c/c isnt taken, I havent seen anyone here who believes their opinion is law.  What they (and I say they because I dont actually give that much c/c) get offended by is when they're totally ignored.  I know from my own wip threads, that i was never able to follow EVERY single suggestion that was thrown on me, but as long as I worked on i and showed some kind of improvement I was encouraged to do more.

 

And besides, as ego-centric as this sounds, when a complete newbie comes (someone who just found mspaint for the first time yesterday)  there are some things we say right away that we're positive will improve it, like - use a lightsource instead of pillowshading, or try to aa this or that, and things like that.. it's not really opinions that we'll attack others for not agrees with, just the basic principles of pixel art.

Lately i've been trying to enforce less negativity wherever i can - as i have also felt this happening. It's just a phase... hopefully.

Edited by Larwick - 15 October 2006 at 4:11pm

I let my first strike of frustration out on PO.

This would've been a lengthy meaningful post in response to a few in the replies here, but I don't want to type that much. And I'm a little drunk.


Edited by Blick - 15 October 2006 at 7:56pm

I don't think that because you're giving opinions or suggestions that you're necessarily better or have more skills than who you're giving your opinion too. I think anyone and everyone can have opinions on what they see and feel looks odd or off. I don't think it's necessarily a one person over the other instruction but more of a pallate of critiques. You take this and that critique and you look at them all and think about what you want to change and what you think you should change, etc. Ultimately, it's the artist's decision.

sure, maybe we could lighten up if we feel we're being too serious. But I definately want to avoid taking things personally. :P

edit: also. I think n00b is an alright word. We're all n00bs in the beginning.     


Edited by Aleiav - 15 October 2006 at 10:42pm

Wow So-Lou really spit chips, unfortunate she had to fall-out over something so pointless. But I suppose it was a culmination, not an isolated event, right? Yeah its her birthday, saw it on myspace...


Ahh I agree so much!!


Indeed! Thats pretty much how I think of the critiquing process as well. "Palette of critiques," well said .

Hmm the word n00b...has always had slightly negative, patronising, contemptuous connotations to me. Perhaps the more loving "newbie" could be a viable substitution? Up to you






Edited by EyeCraft - 16 October 2006 at 8:35am

Ooo, ooo, can we make this the "Mash out your frustrations" thread? I want it to be, I really, really do. It -could-  get really effing ugly, but maybe not.

jsut to show that not all is as it seems, I felt really welcome and at home almost instantly when I joined up and posted.

Edited by Equinoxx - 17 October 2006 at 2:15am

I have been to forums where they have sharp distinctions between n00b, noob, and newbie, as 'immature new member', 'somewhat immature new member', and 'responsible new member', respectively. I think it's better to have one common term that can have its connotation defined by the context of its use, which is how it is now.

To be honest i think flameruler did improve somewhat, but then seemed to derail in the end for some reason. I wouldn't have been so harsh to him, but owel.

and it's things like that that make people wanna open threads like this.
I know where you're coming from though, Feron, it's just that sometimes things like that don't need to be said outloud. We were all thinking it in some fashion or another. We can still live up to higher standards and give a gentlemanly kick in the ass out of here.

that's good shark, just don't let it come to the point where everyone is thinking "feron stfu" 

Next time you want to speak for me, don't.

Especially since it's not what everyone is thinking.

Not that I would know what we're all thinking. But I know you and myself don't have some mental bond, it's been proven beings I don't agree with everything you say.

But the fact that I don't know what everyone else is thinking is the point. That's why I personally don't go "Man, that was one hell of douchebag" and look around at everyone else for some confirming words or looks to justify it with "You know you were thinking it too."


Edited by Blick - 21 October 2006 at 5:07pm

I sincerely doubt that we discriminate against people who aren't the best pixel artists. Case in point? myself. I'm not the best all. In fact, I'm pretty sucktastic, but people still help me and aren't rude to me.

I don't feel we're egocentric at all. I think people just don't know how to take crits without taking it personally. And if someone has a problem with how much is explained, they can always ask and usually people are more than happy to explain.

It's not the easiest to critique. When someone hasn't worked hard on a piece and there's 10 different things wrong with it... it's hard to sit and write a book about what they should do and what they shouldn't do, so we tell them to work harder on it. Most mistakes are easy to identify once you get an artistic eye. And no matter how many crits we give, the best thing for people to do is practice.

And I think it's better for people to hear that they need to spend more time on something than get NO response and keep attempting pixel masterpieces in 10 minutes.

That Jackal really was VERY immature though, he kept asking me to Send him voice clips of my voice so I blocked him and Delted him on MSN, for weeks after that he kept sending me Emails saying "Oh you c**t, i will kill you", or "you pile of sh*t"

All because he was blocked