Okay so I guess here I go... I've been thinking of trying to create a mock up based on mario with a mixture a bit of street fight.. Basically it would be a screen of when both fighters start, mario would be with his arms crossed and a confident expression and his opponent waluigi would have an evil smile but not sure of his pose yet.. First Ill work on Mario (which will prob take a while :)) so im wide open for critics and so on...

 

Edited by RollerKingdom - 27 May 2010 at 7:10am

What kind of style are you going for? If there was a scale where zero was "game Mario" (cartoon) and five was realistic (Mortal Kombat movie) then where on that scale do you want it to fall?

I would say that, yes, even something close to the zero end of the realism scale should be informed by good references (sorry!). Here are some pictures that may help show what I mean:

http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ehondawiifit.jpg
http://johnlarroquetteproject.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/honda.jpg
http://www.walyou.com/img/street-fighter-character-art.jpg

The first shows some great proportions for a fat-but-fit guy (it also just happens to be a Street Fighter character...). The second shows an excellent crossed-arm pose (just download and flip before use...). And the third is just to illustrate an extreme example of style so that you can more easily recognise it in the previous two pictures. What I mean by that is that even though Honda is made of many shapes (circles, tubes, barrels, etc.) the artist was going for an overall, hit-you-on-first-glance shape that unifies the image into a single, striking whole.

In other words, these really pop when you see them, because every element works toward the same, final effect: BANG!.

Do you recognise the "bang" in each image?
(hint:
in the first, it is an "A", with a lot of visual force on the leg on our left, as well as having the spread of his upper body (the bar of the A) from elbow to elbow, which practically forces the center of this image right off the page.
In the second, it is an arc, which starts from his face, and follows the curve of the chest and belly, down toward feet which we can't see, but we can feel because of the arc, and even though there are crossed arms jutting out from this line, they only serve to reinforce the power of this curve, rather than to break it.
And in the third image, the focus is the head, with everything hanging down symmetrically from there, and because of the deceptively casual pose, combined with the confrontational costume design (he's dressed like a tough guy) it creates the juxtaposition of loose (all his body hangs) with power (his costume and his body create a visual "bulge") to generate the feel of "challenge" (great for fighter characters) for an overall burst of eye-catching interest.)

So if you compare these with your pose, you might notice that you need to find a way to generate this "bang" and add some more dynamism, as you were able to do in your previous Avatar vs. Naruto image (notice the lines of dynamic power you gave the characters!).

This image will have that, too, once you fix the issues with the crossed arms (notice how the arms are too long for this size of body, and create a "caved-in" chest feeling, which is not compatible with the confident, outwardly-curved thrust of the pose I assume you are going for, as exampled in the second ref of Honda), and give a more dynamic and natural spread to his feet - as exampled in the first ref (you'll notice how Honda's weight is perfectly and confidently centered between his feet, which is why your Mario looks like he needs to shift his right leg to our left, so that his weight won't be mostly over that one leg - which leads to an unbalanced feeling for this type of pose).

You also need more "volume" in the head above his eyeline.

Sorry for so much, but I hope it helps!

Here's a summary of the points:

1. What is the level of realism you are going for? (the answer to this will inform how much you can exaggerate your pose and proportions)
2. What are the dynamic action lines of this piece? (to help create the "bang" that makes a piece jump off the page)
3. The arms and legs and head need to be tweaked. (plus you need to keep in mind the "bang" as you reposition these parts)

(p.s., if you can make a sketch with an improved pose, please do so and post it - I'd love to see it.)

Wow, that's a great sketch, Roller, and a much more dynamic pose!

Some things you might want to be aware of: the lighter blue arm (as seen in the new sprite) is not long enough. I can see the bicep bulge in the sketch, and it is shown in the sprite as the bulb that sticks off above the elbow, but there is not much of a shoulder above that to speak of.

Since the arm isn't long enough, the elbow is too short. You'll notice in the ref that if you were to draw a line across the top of the shoulders, and then one from elbow tip to elbow tip, the two lines would be roughly parallel, but in your sketch they are actually diagonals that ascend/descend in opposite directions.

I also think that (in the sketch), while the position of the leg on our left is better, the leg still needs to be shifted slightly more to the left to center his weight. That said, this is only so you can more critically evaluate your drawing (for the benefit of future drawings) since in the sprite it seems to look all right.

For your sprite, I really like your hat and moustache! I do feel, though, that:

1. there's not enough light on his face, maybe (you have an excellent skin ramp - the top one - and a great reddish colour for the midtone, right in the middle). I have learned recently that midtones can be more saturated, so that's a great colour choice, so try using that middle red (in the top ramp) in the line between the lit side of his face and the shadow. Also, your sprite doesn't have a lot of pixels, but try to get reflected light in the core of those shadows if possible. Here's an image showing a head being lit from the upper left, as is similar to what I think yours is doing, and here's one with a head lit from the upper right. These might help you with how to light the planes of a face (yours will be less angular than Abe's, of course!)
2. there isn't enough definition to his nose. I expect light and shadow on it, to help it pop (it seems very flat) - heh, ignore this if that part is still WIP
3. his eyes are shifted too close to the edge of his head, and look as if they are popping out of his face (you have them nicely 'embedded' in your sketch, and the sketch's eyebrows are also making a great expression)

Terrific progress so far!

(p.s. sorry to be so wordy, but I'm getting really invested in this great piece, and I'm really being inspired to think about it a lot!)

Great update, Roller!

Is that a belly button? I have a hard time believing you could see it through a layer of denim, but lol!

I still think the elbow on our left is too short (should be covering more of the wrist) but the shading is great, and the new face is terrific!

what's holding in his belly? a belt? there's no visual indication. to my knowlege, with overalls you wouldn't see a line like that...
overalls are made from denim, which has threading and tufting from the seams. you have enough resolution to incorporate them.


crotch seems a little akward, can't go into more detail than that.

front leg seems much bigger than the far one. (even for distance compensation, its half the size, compaired to the arms, which are nearly identical.

stance seems a little too wide, probably because of the difference in leg thicknesses.

for the muscularness you've given to him, his shoulders shure seem small...

and his cheek seems puffy, as if its been hit already, maybe remove some of the shine? or at least tone it down...

But for the most part i think you got it down. i can definately tell its mario.

It's looking really good, Roller - you've made quite a few improvements.

I would say that having a shadow under the belly does look better, but since having an excuse for it is important, maybe we can get suggestions from everybody, such as "his guts look like that naturally, now, since he wears belted pants all the rest of the time", or "he's wearing belted pants under the protective overalls", and so on. I think it's an important enough detail that you may be able to get away with fudging the reality.

Do you think it's possible to put the denim seams on his overalls? Maybe make an alternate test version with the dotted lines and post it to see what everybody thinks. I especially would like to see some cuffs that almost cover the entire insteps of the shoes.

I'm afraid I'm a bit of a symmetry freak, and I would like the leg on our left to have the same area lit as on the leg on our right (the upper thigh). The lighting on that leg on our right should probably first be raised, and have the midtone light (not the lightest highlight) be stretched down into more of an oval, if possible, before making them match.

I would also like to see some lighting on the rightmost shoe - perhaps a spot specular could even benefit both (I'm a big fan of those, so disregard if they're not your own taste!).

Don't see anything else that jumps out at me - you've got it going great so far!

Looks much better indeed, but I think you can still add more detail to the seams and stuff. Face still seems to need some work, mostly just more definition. I'm doing a quick edit of it right now, will post in a second.
EDIT:
Just to give you an idea of what I think you should do.

Edited by lucas_irineu - 31 May 2010 at 1:20pm

Thank you Lucas and Jal

so i worked around it a bit and yea it does look much better
Jal, I increased and curved his mustache a bit and i also like it much better that way..

Thanks Jal, I guess that what it was missing as well..
worked a bit around it and how did it come out?

p.s: I have a feeling if the rest of the work come out great as it's going so far it has a chance to be my best work and hopefully with the highest # of favs


Edited by RollerKingdom - 31 May 2010 at 7:54pm

Thanks StepDragon, I will see about that later.. i like the idea of him having this fat belly :P

anyways now to the second 25% of the project I would say..
time to work on his opponent Waluigi, based on some pictures of waluigi I could say he is an evil character but silly so this is the pose im going for
but i kno there are a lot of anatomy prob. already ;(



It was supposedly based upon this ">picture but had to slightly change some things to make him look thin..

thanks for the points of view..
Although I don't want to make him like twice as mario height, I think it would look odd for the game..
I am though going to increase his legs a bit more because they look short atm.. but yea I will be tweaking around with his pose before going to detailing

When you first mentioned having Waluigi, I thought immediately that he could be the Dhalsim of your mockup, so I agree with where StepDragon's third pose is going (it also looks well proportioned and balanced to me).

If you want jal's bigger belly for Mario, it looks wrong with the lower arms, since the belly would hold them up (he couldn't keep them in that position without straining against the top of his belly).

Also, you lost a bit of the "shoulders back" confidence of the pose (the arms just look droopy, now) - so my personal request is to ask you to return to the arms you had (sorry jal) which also had more aesthetic shapes, especially in the definition of the leftmost tricep area (but obviously go with what you like best - my use of droopy vs. confident was in no way meant to unduly influence you ). I was willing to say that foreshortening could make up for any worries that the arms weren't long enough.

(Sorry if that's more opinion than helpfulness!)

He's a little too fat, don'cha think?


ANYWAYS, fooling aside. Yes you're example is fat, and in a fighting game, but he is not disproportionate. look at him (yours not mine) as an example. with him, he has VERY broad shoulders, and a wide leg stance, but even so, his torso is intact and held.

in the case of Mario, his belly looks more like somebody who had been an alcoholic for MANY years and has a beer belly which without his shirt on would hang down to his knees (which I've seen before, its not pretty)

i realize i'm exaggerating a little bit, but the concept is still there. however, thank you for allowing me to explain myself in more detail.

@RollerKingdom
Please keep in mind, no matter how much I may emphasize a point, Ultimately it is YOUR art. and I respect that. You are free to take or leave any advice I may present. I don't mind if you don't agree with my views. In the end, Its Your art, Your the boss!

thank you guys,
now im confused on which marios pose to choose >_<
I actually liked Jals pose a lot because his arms are resting on his belly but still with a confident pose...

@stepdragon: OO I love the third pose.. Ill work a bit around to make it almost alike and post it after, thanks for the help!

SO since I've been working lately it got a bit hard to keep working on it but I will move slowly and steady..

Based upon Steps pose I recreated it to be more "waluigi" and started on it
I did his face so far.. can it be recognized as waluigi?


I've noticed that Ill have to make his pupils to our left side so he can look at mario


Edited by RollerKingdom - 03 June 2010 at 8:25am

Just my opinion, but i think his head could be a little bigger.

(here's why, in toony waluigi, his head is HUGE. and even some massively tall guys have larger heads than normal. not by much, but noticeably.)

i'm sure you have a good ref, so i'm not gonna bother posting one. Good luck!

Thank you guys, I hope you also understand that im giving the characters a bit of my style.. i do not except it to be completely 100% identical to the original one but have most of the parts recognizable. 

Terrific Waluigi face, and I agree about the pupils.

I recommend pixelling the head without the hand in the way (you don't have to refine the parts you know will be covered), and I think the hat is a little too small or lacking in shape (perhaps increase the bill, and give more volume to the part that leans out over his face?).

And definitely keep your own style whenever you can!

Extend the bill of the hat more, and maybe for his arm have it at a slightly higher angle in a karate chop position.

ugh, the crotch again....>.<

Anyway, I would work on the hips and legs alot more. The orientation suggests that he is facing backwards, but the rest of the body doesnt. It seems like he's twisting his body too much. Maybe try to make the leg that touches the floor straight, instead of bent.

Not to mention, that looks like a really uncomfortable position to stand in. Usually that means somethings off.

Also, the bill of the hat needs to be extended. The part of the part that goes over the face.




Edited by Buddy90 - 03 June 2010 at 8:59pm

I will work on these tips soon..
about the "less color" subject I think it will even out when denim is added..

I don't like the arm behind Waluigi's head being such a straight line and just disappearing back there...
...the 2 sprites overall are at a stage that you might want to go ahead and start the BG and see what details, changes, and edits the characters will need later on in the process. Ya noes?

Don't quite know where your BG ideas are headed but maybe check the slideshow of scenes from the movie, might inspire.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108255/

Ill fix some of the stuff possible for now..
and as for the background i want to make it in a dark scene
so the characters maybe stands out more??
also i want to add some mario characteristics to it but with diff style.

Like those mountains, the tube, plants..

Also here's a more update on waluigi, looks better ?



Edited by RollerKingdom - 05 June 2010 at 8:24am

I just wanted to say I think it's great how well you take criticism and suggestions. In all your threads you're quick to respond with edits following the ideas of other members and because of that I see you're getting much, much better. It's great to see an artist like you! :)

And on that note, I think his arm looks better this way, but it should still be behind his head. That way a little hand is showing in the background, it's not too linear, and adds more depth. :)

On waluigi, if you have the hand behind his head, the 'L' is totally unreadable. i know you don't have the pixel space to outline it, but maybe try to make it darker (almost orange), from a distance it shall be more readable. even if its not the 'correct' color.